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mathy topology question?

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Pizopizopizo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:53 pm


let us define a celtic knot as a design where each piece of rope has the alternating pattern of going under and over and under and over etc... another piece of rope.
You may have just one rope looped together but they still must have the alternating pattern of over under over under. An example of that is a trefoil.
you can have multiple loops wound together too, like an interlocked star of david.
However, the ropes in the design doesnt neccesarily have to be looped together.


can you prove that if you randomly draw a jumble of lines so that the ends of the lines lie in the same loop (or "on the outside" but in topology, the "outside" itself is a loop), you will ALWAYS be able to keep that alternating over/under pattern for ALL the ropes involved in the design?

maybe the proof is simple. i made a really complex case by case one that i dont think even works.
why is it that i have to sound like a character made by dostoevsky when im thinking? sad
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:15 pm


We are assuming that only two lines cross per crossing, right?

In that case, the simplest proof that I can think of is a two-coloring of the areas bounded by the loop. For example,

b|w|b
w|b|w
b|w|b

We know that such a coloring exists because the loop is closed and all of the crossings only involve two parts of the rope. I can't think of a neat proof for this fact off the top of my head, but one could probably induct on the number of crossings+the Jordan curve theorem.

Anyway, now we have this coloring. Now consider any black region and any crossing on the boundary of that black region. If we walk along one of the lines in the crossing toward the intersection, the black region will be on our left; on the other line, the region will be on our right.
So let us choose to put the line for which the black region is on our right on top at the crossing.

b |
--|-

If we do this for all regions, then we have our Celtic knot.

So why does this work? Consider any line. Given two adjacent crossings on that line, the segment of the line between those crossings borders exactly one black region. If we start at the middle of the segment and move toward one crossing, the black region is on the right, and thus the line goes on top at that crossing. If we start at the middle of the segment and move toward the other crossing, the black region is on the left, and thus the line goes on the bottom at that crossing.
Thus the line must alternate being on top and on the bottom.

Layra-chan
Crew


Pizopizopizo

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:16 am


Layra-chan
We are assuming that only two lines cross per crossing, right?

yes. sorry i forgot to state that.

Quote:

In that case, the simplest proof that I can think of is a two-coloring of the areas bounded by the loop. For example,

b|w|b
w|b|w
b|w|b


im not quite sure how you were able to reduce it to that.
Quote:

We know that such a coloring exists because the loop is closed and all of the crossings only involve two parts of the rope.

not all loops are closed. well, i guess since the endpoints have to be in the same hole (or a even number in each hole) i guess it doesnt matter if its closed or not. every case that isnt closed can be made closed without altering the weaving pattern...

Quote:
I can't think of a neat proof for this fact off the top of my head, but one could probably induct on the number of crossings+the Jordan curve theorem.


whats the Jordan curve theorem? *wikipedias it*
wikipedia says "the Jordan curve theorem states that every non-self-intersecting loop in the plane divides the plane into an "inside" and an "outside". "
but the loops im taking about does not have to be non self intersecting so i dont see how this can help. a 5 pointed star could be a celtic knot...
so is an 8 and the infinity symbol.


Quote:

Anyway, now we have this coloring. Now consider any black region and any crossing on the boundary of that black region. If we walk along one of the lines in the crossing toward the intersection, the black region will be on our left; on the other line, the region will be on our right.
So let us choose to put the line for which the black region is on our right on top at the crossing.

oh, i see. previously. you reduced the liney thing to a graph with the intersections being the colored vertices the lines running up and down confused me but they should be the edges...

did i misinterpret that? part of me is saying that the black region is the vertex and the other part has no clue what you are talking about. redface

Quote:

b |
--|-

If we do this for all regions, then we have our Celtic knot.

So why does this work? Consider any line. Given two adjacent crossings on that line, the segment of the line between those crossings borders exactly one black region. If we start at the middle of the segment and move toward one crossing, the black region is on the right, and thus the line goes on top at that crossing. If we start at the middle of the segment and move toward the other crossing, the black region is on the left, and thus the line goes on the bottom at that crossing.
Thus the line must alternate being on top and on the bottom.


um... is it possible to do this a little more graphically? my verbal skills arent that great. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:23 pm


Let's try that again (yeah, diagrams would really help.)

Firstly, we can make the line thingy into one long loop by joining the ends that are sticking out. Well, it doesn't even need to be one long loop, as long as there aren't any ends sticking out. If we do it properly, by joining ends that are next to each other, then we don't create any more crossings.

For example, suppose that we've closed everything and end up with this (simple case for illustrative purposes):

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Now we can just split off loops from the outside as so:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Thus we end up with a bunch of closed loops, like so:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Now we fill in all of the closed loops, which we can do by the Jordan Curve theorem:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

And stick everything back together. Now we have our coloring.
Now let's look at one of the filled regions, and at one portion of the boundary of that region (lines made red for clarity):

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Let's call the three lines the higher line, the middle line, and the lower line (names self-explanatory).
Let's look at the lower intersection. We take each of the lines in that intersection, and draw arrows going along next to the filled region toward that intersection:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Now, for the middle line, the filled region is on the right, and for the lower line, the filled region is on the left. So we put the middle line on top at the crossing:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Now we do that for all of the crossings. Note that when going toward the lower crossing, the middle line has the filled region on the right, but when going toward the higher crossing, it has the filled region on the left. Thus we put it above at the lower crossing, and below at the higher crossing:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Thus we get an alternating over-under pattern.
Now we can just undo the coloring and the extra joinings, and the crossings will still fit the over-under criterion.

(Pictures done really quickly in Photoshop)

Layra-chan
Crew


Pizopizopizo

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:33 pm


wow i've never thought of it that way before!
i understand the left right ==> over under part but that only works if you can prove that the "map" is two colorable.

I'm not sure where the jordan curve theorem fits. please explain. i wikipediaed it last time and got the statement in the last post.

I was thinking more along the lines of making it a graph with the intersections as vertices and proving that all things formed by loops are two colorable.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:34 pm


btw, does anyone know of a good graphics software program thats free and runs on ubuntu? i dont have photoshop for ubuntu and i dont think gimp has one either. crying

it would be nice if i can post some diagrams.

Pizopizopizo


Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:49 am


blacksheepmails
wow i've never thought of it that way before!
i understand the left right ==> over under part but that only works if you can prove that the "map" is two colorable.

I'm not sure where the jordan curve theorem fits. please explain. i wikipediaed it last time and got the statement in the last post.

I was thinking more along the lines of making it a graph with the intersections as vertices and proving that all things formed by loops are two colorable.


Here's where it fits in: Look at the diagram where everything is split into loops:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

Now, by the Jordan curve theorem, since we have a bunch of non-self-intersecting loops (thus the point of splitting the thing apart), all of the loops have an inside and an outside. In fact, by construction, they all share a mutual outside. Thus we can take the insides and color those, thus giving us our two coloring:

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.


To make this argument rigorous, you'd have to induct on the number of loops or the number of intersections or something, but that's really not much of a problem.
Something along the lines of:
Base Case: it works for one loop, i.e. for no intersections
Inductive step: if we have a thing with n intersections, we can take any line segment on the outside of the thing and split off a loop with that line segment as part of the boundary, thus making a thing with < n intersections and a loop with 0 intersections.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:39 pm


Layra-chan


To make this argument rigorous, you'd have to induct on the number of loops or the number of intersections or something, but that's really not much of a problem.
Something along the lines of:
Base Case: it works for one loop, i.e. for no intersections
Inductive step: if we have a thing with n intersections, we can take any line segment on the outside of the thing and split off a loop with that line segment as part of the boundary, thus making a thing with < n intersections and a loop with 0 intersections.


ok redface
now i see what you mean.

but i dont understand your explanation of how to divide the design into distinct loops with the same outside.
what I'm getting is that you take out one unintersected loop at a time (from the outside edge of the design) but i'm not convinced that the remaining shape will alwyas be a loop. why not a line?
or maybe i should get some sleep and read this again.

Pizopizopizo


Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:39 pm


Parity arguments, basically.

Your standard intersection is a point with four edges coming off of it. When you split off a loop that goes through that intersection, you're removing two of the edges, leaving the other two edges intact. Thus you end up with essentially a single edge, and so you don't have any endpoints loose. Thus you still have a loop and not a line.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:26 pm


gotcha. biggrin

Pizopizopizo


sugar-baby-2004

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:01 pm


very interesting title ^^
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:07 pm


Ha, I'm actually kinda glad this topic was revived. One of my friends gave a talk on alternating diagrams for our junior seminar in knot theory. If no one else covers it, I'm gonna end up having to do the seminar on constructing the fundamental group; if not, I get to do one of the optional topics, either Dehn surgery or Kirby calculus.

Swordmaster Dragon

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