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agrab0ekim

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:27 am


ok, so my friends and i have gotten into a discussion about this, and i was hoping you could help me solve it by providing useul links...

Ok, so there are infinite numbers between 1 and 2. Then, there are infinite number between 2 and 3. So, by that logic, there are 2*infinity numbers between 1 and 3...

Now, i think that there are many infinities, ones that are smaller then others, and ones that incorperate others. My friends disagree, who is right?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:24 am


Your conclusion is correct, but your reasoning is not. Think about how one would be able to determine whether or not two sets are equinumerous For example, let X = {1,2,3}, Y = {a,b,c}, and Z = {bob,fred}. Take the elements of X and Y and pair them up: {(1,a),(2,c),(3,b)} (there are six ways of doing so; this is just one of them) such that each member of X is paired with exactly one member of Y and vice versa. Mathematically, this is called a bijection. Since it is possible to pair up X and Y this way, they are equinumerous. It is not possible to pair up X and Z in this manner, so that X and Z are not equinumerous.

Now, are the intervals [1,2] and [1,3] equinumerous? Absolutely. There are infinitely many bijections between them, but we only need one: say, f(x) = 2x-1. Therefore, there is "the same amount" of numbers between 1 and 2 as between 1 and 3.

There is also the same amount of rational numbers as whole numbers, but it does not mean that all infinities are the same. On the contrary, it is possible to prove that there are more real numbers than whole numbers, and hence also more than rational ones. The most famous method of proving it is called Cantor diagonalization, although alternative methods such as using the Baire category theorem exist.

VorpalNeko
Captain


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:09 pm


I didn't think you could establish such a quantitive relationship as "equinumerous" for uncountable sets. For instance, f(x)=x+1 is a bijection between [1,2] and [2,3], while f(x)=2x-1 is a bijection between [1,2] and [1,3]. So in this way, the compared intervals have different "lengths", if we were going to impose a geometrical parallel, but are evidently equinumerous. So then, are all uncountable sets equinumerous? Or rather, is this the extension of the term "equinumerous" to uncountable sets?

It actually reminds me of the old paradox of the rolling wheel. S'pose you have two concentric circles (a wheel, as it were), and then rolled it exactly one rotation. The larger circle would trace out a length on the ground equal to 2*pi*r. But because the circles are rotating with the same angular velocity, the smaller circle must also have traced out exactly one revolution. But the inner circle also travelled the same distance; so that the line left on the "ground" is the same length as the line of the larger circle, even though the radius was smaller.

By using two circles of appropriate sizes, you can use this more "geometrical" idea to show that any two real intervals have a bijective correspondence, and that they both contain uncountably many points.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:08 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
I didn't think you could establish such a quantitive relationship as "equinumerous" for uncountable sets. For instance, f(x)=x+1 is a bijection between [1,2] and [2,3], while f(x)=2x-1 is a bijection between [1,2] and [1,3]. So in this way, the compared intervals have different "lengths", if we were going to impose a geometrical parallel, but are evidently equinumerous.

Correct. The abive two sets have the same cardinality, i.e., are equinumerous. Moreover, the interval [0,1] is equinumerous with the entire real line. In the case of the open interval, this is actually obvious--just map (0,1) to (-inf,inf) via some function like f(x) = tan(π(x-1/2)) or somesuch. Constructing an explicit bijection between [0,1] and R is a bit tricker, but can be done a rather numerous number of ways. In ZFC, its existence is a very straightforward corollary of the Cantor-Bernstein-Schröder theorem.

Swordmaster Dragon
So then, are all uncountable sets equinumerous? Or rather, is this the extension of the term "equinumerous" to uncountable sets?

No. The power set is not equinumerous with the original set, for example. Every bijection is also a surjection, i.e., its range is the entire codomain. Given a set A, consider any f:A→P(A), and define the set B = {a in A: a is not in f(a)}. Then clearly B is in P(A) but is not the image of any b in A, so that f is not surjective. This is called Cantor diagonalization and holds regardless of whether A is finite or infinite. Therefore, the power set operation applied to an infinite set constructs a set with a 'higher order' of infinity, at least in ZFC or stronger. In pure ZF set theory, the cardinalities of sets may simply be incomparable.

VorpalNeko
Captain


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:24 pm


VorpalNeko
No. The power set is not equinumerous with the original set, for example. Every bijection is also a surjection, i.e., its range is the entire codomain. Given a set A, consider any f:A→P(A), and define the set B = {a in A: a is not in f(a)}. Then clearly B is in P(A) but is not the image of any b in A, so that f is not surjective. This is called Cantor diagonalization and holds regardless of whether A is finite or infinite. Therefore, the power set operation applied to an infinite set constructs a set with a 'higher order' of infinity, at least in ZFC or stronger. In pure ZF set theory, the cardinalities of sets may simply be incomparable.


Umm...lost on notation. First; the power set? If I'm thinking of group theory, this would simply mean that in many cases, the set {x^i; i over all integers} would be the power set. If this is what you mean by power set, then I understand...if not, I'm lost.

As for your second description - the notation behind Cantor diagonalization - what is P(A)? None of the rest of it seems to make sense without understanding what P(A) is.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:01 pm


For a set A, the power set P(A) is the set containing all the subsets of A, including A.
For example, if A = {0, 1} then P(A) = {{}, {0}, {1}, {0, 1}}. Note that the size of the power set, |P(A)|, is equal to 2^|A|.

Consider Neko's construction then. B = {a in A: a is not in f(a)} is a subset of A and contains at least the preimage of the empty-set in P(A) if such a preimage exists. The important part is that B is well-defined.
Because B is a subset of A, B is in P(A).
Suppose there were some element b such that f(b) = B. If b were contained in B, then b would be contained in f(b), but no element a in B is contained in f(a), so b cannot be in B.
If, however, b were not in B, then b would not be in f(b), and thus b would have to be in B.
Therefore there cannot be such a b. Thus B does not correspond to any element in A. Since this construction does not rely on any particular f, for any function from A to P(A), there exists such a set B in P(A), and thus P(A) cannot be equinumerous to A, but must in fact be larger than it.

Layra-chan
Crew


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:39 pm


What I needed was the description of P(A), or rather exactly what a power set is. If you haven't noticed, I'm terribly new to a lot of this mathematics...things like that are lost on me. But given this definition, it is rather easy to see how P(A) is always larger than A. Thanks.

But I still don't understand the connection between the power set and Cantor diagonalization, or what the terms ZF and ZFC mean.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:59 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
But I still don't understand the connection between the power set and Cantor diagonalization, ...

The proof that P(A) is larger than A even for infinite sets is called Cantor diagonalization. The connection between it and the standard proof that the set of reals is larger than the set of naturals is very straightforward. Consider the set of reals in [0,1], for example, and represent them in binary. The proof actually works in any natural base of more than 1, but binary makes the connection explicit later on. This representation is not unique, e.g., 0.1000... = 0.0111... (analogously in decimal, 0.1000.. = 0.0999...), but those cases can be easily removed from consideration, either explicitly or by positing that a certain type of representation is preferred. The proof then proceeds thusly: if you have a function f:N→(0,1), consider the binary digits of
f(0) = . a_00 a_01 a_02 ...
f(1) = . a_10 a_11 a_12 ...
f(2) = . a_20 a_21 a_22 ...
... etc., and construct the number a defined by its nth digit as a_n = 1-(a_{nn}). Then clearly a differs from each number f(n) in the list on the nth digit, and thus is not on the list, and therefore f is not a surjection. Note that a_nn is the diagonal of this gigantic list, which is why it is called "diagonalization."

The connection with the set-theoretic Cantor diagonalization is then straightforward. Each member of B of P(A) is a subset of A, which can be described as a characteristic function χ_B:A→{0,1} defined by χ_B(x) = 1 iff x in B. Thus, the only difference with the binary real number case, other than a few (countably few) cases of alternative representations, is that real numbers have digits indexed by the natural numbers, whereas the subsets have 'digits' indexed by members of A. No order on A is implied.

Swordmaster Dragon
... or what the terms ZF and ZFC mean.

The initialism ZF stands for Zermelo-Fraenkel, the standard axiomatization of set theory. The extra C in ZFC is the system of Zermelo-Fraenkel axioms appended by the axiom of choice. Almost all of mathematics is reducible to ZFC or equivalent, although it has a few competitors.

VorpalNeko
Captain


VorpalNeko
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:29 pm


Anyone interested can try to prove these, but without experience in set theory, they're not obvious. For the record, countable means finite or equinumerous with the set of natural numbers.
1) The set of rationals is equinumerous with the set of naturals.
2) Construct a bijection between the real intervals [0,1] and (0,1).
3) Every countable union of countable sets is countable.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:41 pm


I thought Cantor diagonalization was a general process, simply noting that any set that can be formed in a sequence or an array is at most countable. I've seen it used in the proof that the real numbers are uncountable, but I just didn't make the generalized connection.

Of your list, the only one I haven't seen a proof of before is (2). I understand how you could impose an injective function between [0,1] and (0,1), but not a surjective one...I can think of a bijection between [0,1] and [/epsilon,1-/epsilon], but I know in analysis that's a terrible no-no.

Swordmaster Dragon


VorpalNeko
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:26 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
I thought Cantor diagonalization was a general process, simply noting that any set that can be formed in a sequence or an array is at most countable. I've seen it used in the proof that the real numbers are uncountable, but I just didn't make the generalized connection.

It is a very general process; it has nothing to do with sequences/array or countability at all. All that matters is that you have some objects described by some parameters indexed by some set. In the real case, a real number x in [0,1] is re-interpreted as a function χ_x:N→{0,1} (i.e., its binary digits). In the set-theoretic case, a subset B of A is re-interpreted as a function χ_B:A→{0,1}. The process of constructing a number or set not found in any list indexed by A is exactly the same: it is whatever object corresponds to the function G:A→{0,1} defined by G(x) = 1-χ_x(x). It makes no difference whether or not the index set is countable or not.

Swordmaster Dragon
Of your list, the only one I haven't seen a proof of before is (2). I understand how you could impose an injective function between [0,1] and (0,1), but not a surjective one...

Do you mean the other way around, perhaps? A surjective f:[0,1]→(0,1) is trivial.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:57 am


Why is the subset B re-interpreted as a function, and what will that function read? I'm not understanding the purpose of this for some arbitrary subset B.

Swordmaster Dragon


VorpalNeko
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:38 am


Swordmaster Dragon
Why is the subset B re-interpreted as a function, and what will that function read? I'm not understanding the purpose of this for some arbitrary subset B.

The purpose of it is simply to make the connection between the diagonalization of the real numbers using their digits (here, in binary) and the diagonalization of sets explicit. I've already defined the characteristic χ_B:A→{0,1} as χ_B(x) = 1 iff x in B. In other words, each set is treated as a "sequence" of binary digits indexed by elements of A such that the "a-th" digit is 1 if the a is in B and 0 if it is not in B. Again, no order on A is implied. In this restatement, the set-theoretic diagonalization is exactly the same as the standard real diagonalization. In the real number case, one constructs a sequence of digits (g:N→{0,1}) that differs from f(n) on the nth digit for all n; this represents a real number whose binary digits form this sequence. In this case, one constructs a "sequence" (g:A→{0,1}) that differs from f(a) on the a-th digit for all a in A; this represent a set whose characteristic function matches this construction.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:52 pm


So in short, the diagonalization process becomes a set algorithm for proving that no bijection between A and B exist? Perhaps I'm simply not seeing how this diagonalization is applied explicitly.

Swordmaster Dragon


VorpalNeko
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:45 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
So in short, the diagonalization process becomes a set algorithm for proving that no bijection between A and B exist? Perhaps I'm simply not seeing how this diagonalization is applied explicitly.

No, between A and P(A). A stronger statement is actually proved--there is no surjection f:A→P(A); the fact that there is no bijection follows immediately, of course, since every bijection is surjective by definition. The role of B is that it is constructed so as to not be in the range of f.

I'm assuming you're already familiar with the Cantor diagonalization that proves that the real interval [0,1] is uncountable. Recall whichever version you're familiar with and try to connect it with the following restatement. The previous caveats of non-unique representations apply, but since the number of exception is countable, they can be dealt with easily. For the moment, I'll ignore this issue completely.

Identify each real number in x in [0,1] with the sequence of digits in its base-two representation, i.e., with a function x:N→{0,1} such that x = Sum_k[ x(k)/2^{k+1} ], where N is the set of natural numbers. Suppose you have a given function f:N→[0,1]. Construct a funtion y:N→{0,1} as follows: y(n) = 1 - [f(n)](n), where [f(n)] is the function identified with the real number f(n) in the above manner. The real number corresponding to y is not equal to f(n) for any n because it differs on the nth digit. Thus, f is not a surjection.

Replacing N with an arbitrary set A and forgetting all talk of real numbers altogether, what the above argument shows is that there is no surjection f from A to the set of functions {x:A→{0,1}}, by the same construction of y(a) = 1 - [f(a)](a). The only remaining step is to identify each x:A→{0,1} with a subset of A, which is done in the natural way by interpreting it as a characteristic function.
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Mathematics

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