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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:58 am
Does anyone know what the rules in the medieval age were in regard to women posing as men, and men posing as women? Were there any particular laws regarding such affairs?
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:31 am
Don't know about laws, but it certainly would have been done under certain circumstances. The most obvious that comes to mind was Jean D'Arc ...
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:05 am
I don't know the period-ness of cross dressing other than in times of war, but I've certainly seen some pretty SCA men in gowns.
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:48 pm
well, the only time i've really heard of period cross-dressing was actors 3nodding
but SCA - i know lots of people who cross dress! xd whether it be a dare, a bet gone wrong, drunk-ness or just for fun! xd lolz i also know many people who's person is of the opposite gender (a tom-boy friend of mine, and a friend who wants to fight with a male persona are the 2 that come to mind) 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:35 pm
Several years ago, in the old midrealm, before Ealdormere was a region (before Principality or kingdom even) we had one young man whose person was female. Unfortunately, his behaviour within the SCA was inappropriate and he ended up being banned. One of the few times I've heard of someone being banned from the SCA. It was not very pleasant at the time.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:39 pm
I don't think there were any laws against /men/ dressing as women - but there were harsh punishments if /women/ dressed and tried to make people believe she was a man....
However in the SCA - I've seen alot of men in women's gowns and look quite stunning actually, not to mention they're the most wonderful people to talk to about fashions. And naturally, there are women fighters...
Now, I personally find dressing in tunics and pants just easier then donning a dress or skirts for mutli-day events. Now when I manage to go to court - I will dress up as a sign of respect to the royals.
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Not-So-Sweet Transvestite
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:46 pm
Well, I haven't done much research on the topic, but I'd bet my right greave that if anyone had a problem with it, it was the Church.
I know there were many cases of period fighting women dressing as men, but that's to be expected because it can be a challenge fighting in twelve layers of dress. I've known women to do it, but they train just to handle their clothing with some degree of grace. I know from experience, little on the field is more embarassing than tripping on your own clothing or gear and falling on your arse. I did it twice last war, and I felt like heading back to my village both times.
As to men, there are few societies in human history that were ok with their men dressing up as women. One notable exception is those boys in late-period theaters who played women, as it was considered improper (and even obscene) to display an authentic female on the stage.
As to our current middle ages, I have personally known a handful of biological females who, while they didn't cross-dress in the mundane world, had male personae, and one male who had a female persona (although I cannot speak to his mundane habits, as I don't know him very well). As a side note, I have also known men who play masculine personae but cross-dress in their mundane lives. There's no accounting for people... Anyway, the way the laws are written in most kingdoms is that you are the gender it says on the form to register your name with the college of heralds. Whether you can actually convince them to call your fuzzy a** "lady" is another matter, but officially you will be treated as a lady, as long as the people doing the treating know they're supposed to. However, in most kingdoms a man with a male persona could not take a man with a female persona for his consort come time for crown. I think that law is stupid, but that's just me. (Someday when I have a pointy hat...)
Hope that helped.
So sayeth the beltless warrior
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:49 pm
Dammask Several years ago, in the old midrealm, before Ealdormere was a region (before Principality or kingdom even) we had one young man whose person was female. Unfortunately, his behaviour within the SCA was inappropriate and he ended up being banned. One of the few times I've heard of someone being banned from the SCA. It was not very pleasant at the time. Our king banned his own brother. Messy affair.
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Not-So-Sweet Transvestite
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:52 pm
I've seen a few women fighting in their skirts ad stuff.
As for me, I cross dress. Since I am a girl in real life, I wear guy piriate clothes because I have no dresses. I've never seen a guy cross dress as a women, but I have seen men in kilts. =3
I think it would be perfectly fine, at least it would be in the kingdom of AnTir. ^_^
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Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:27 pm
Twin star of Suzaku I don't think there were any laws against /men/ dressing as women - but there were harsh punishments if /women/ dressed and tried to make people believe she was a man....
However in the SCA - I've seen alot of men in women's gowns and look quite stunning actually, not to mention they're the most wonderful people to talk to about fashions. And naturally, there are women fighters...
Now, I personally find dressing in tunics and pants just easier then donning a dress or skirts for mutli-day events. Now when I manage to go to court - I will dress up as a sign of respect to the royals. Yes, yes, yes. Seriously, I'm more comfortable in jeans mundanely, but when I went and actually looked at the vestments (I love being in the SCA and the Episcopal Church, because my Eastern Roman persona would have worn what we now call vestments!) and went nutso. Dressing up for court is great because you lucky SCAdians actually get to see me all dressed up. Not even my mom gets to see me dressed up as often as SCAdians do. BUT...in the event I actually pick up fighting, I'm looking forward to the tunics. Oh yeah.
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:27 am
As far a history goes, at the time of the Inquisition it was blasphemy for women to don the garments of men...I guess the most known example of that was Joan d'Arc. Cauchon tried to use that law to convict her after the heresy and witchcraft charges began to fall through...even though it called for much milder punishment than burning at the stake...but anyway. That was around...1400s? France, Italy, and Spain were all Catholic, and England was too until around 1500 or so.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:35 pm
littlegreengirl I don't know the period-ness of cross dressing other than in times of war, but I've certainly seen some pretty SCA men in gowns. Indeed. When Isabella was queen of the east, there was this gorgous look-alike who happened to be a man. Some of the most fantastic garb I've ever seen.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:22 pm
I don't know if he still does it, but Efenwealt used to occasionally become GiGi. He makes a lovely lady, I have to say.
There's also a lady who's persona is male, so in the SCA she's Lord Rohan. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:34 am
Well, that's something I never really considered doing in SCA. Even if I was so inclined, I just don't have the right build for it, for one. And besides, I have dark hair, so when my whiskers start to grow in, they're painfully obvious. It'd be hard to stay passably baby-smooth over a multi-day event.
No offense to folks who do don the opposite garb. If you can make it work, do so with my blessing. I don't judge on things like that. mrgreen
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:41 am
My personal preference is for people to stick with their biological gender when they choose a SCAdian persona. Key exception being women who want to fight, as 1) I understand it's a pain to fight in dresses and 2) women wouldn't have fought in the true middle ages (generaly!) so why force them to do so in true garb for women of the middle ages? On the other hand, I wont judge or say anything to someone who is cross dressing. My two best girl friends refuse to wear dresses whether or not they are fighting, though they both have a female persona so it's more a matter of historical inacuracy than gender bending. Although one is looking into, I think it is, Mongolian attire so she can wear pants and be period. As a side note, I understand kilts are period for men and have seen several men who wear one very well.
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