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 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:44 am
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I had some specific questions on a certain subject....now I REALLLY REALLY REALLY REALLLLLLLY dont want to ruffle feathers here......but I am trying to help someone....and needed to know ....about Mormonism....
I have read up on it....refusing to accept things that looked even slightly like propaganda....if a piece of information did not show up on at least four legit sites I discarded it taking it as propaganda either for or against Mormonism....
now before I begin....I would like to say...that I myself have NEVER met a bad Mormon....that as far as I have seen....the great many Mormons I have met...are good hearted caring people that have high morals and over all live very healthy successful lives....
however....within my research....I have seen a great many things....
first off....I have no more a problem with Mormonism than I have with Buddhism or the Jewish faith or well..any other religion really
all people are given the right by God to believe whatever they want to. however.... the only thing I bring to question.....is the religion's founder.
Joseph Smith.
as far as I have seen and read and heard....about 90% of ALL people who leave Mormonism....leave because they have learned the actual historical facts of Joseph Smith. not anti Mormon propaganda or pro Mormon propaganda. but what actually happened in the life of Joseph Smith. things he actually taught things he actually did.
now before I go any further I would like to clarify
this topic is NOT for opinions for or against Mormonism or any other religion.
all that is stated here is FACT and actual history.
first on topic....was one of the things I found most disturbing
I started this part of my research when I read Alma 3:6-10
specifically stating the "origin" of all people who bare skin that is darkened.
now you can find several different ways this was spoken or worded....but in the end they all come out the same
6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a acurse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a amark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not amix and believe in incorrect btraditions which would prove their destruction.
9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
10 Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.
my research went on...coming to find out that this was in DIRECT reference to ANYONE with skin in any other color than white.
here is a cut and paste from the Mormon teachings that I found on multiple sites.
When the plan of salvation presented . . . and when the need for a Redeemer was explained, Satan offered to come into the world as the Son of God and be the Redeemer. "Behold here am I, send me," he said. . . . But then, as always, he was in opposition to the full plan of the Father, and so he sought to amend and change the terms of salvation; he sought to deny men their agency and to dethrone God (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 193).
Therefore, the Gods rejected Lucifer's plan, which resulted in a war between the good spirit children, and the spirit children that sided with Lucifer (a third of them). But there was a group of spirits that were less valiant in this war. Hence, God (the head God) was very displeased with them so He turned their skin black. Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith explains:
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).
found this on yet another few sites
Citations – Mormon Scriptures and Respected Mormon Leaders
[1] Journal of Discourses 1:50-51; J of D 8:115; Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:20 [2] Doctrine and Covenants 84:33-9; Goddesses are always subject to a god. Women are denied the Priesthood (meaning they are denied authority—not the same as Catholic priesthood). “In the LDS universe, theologically described as the real eternal universe, each man who achieves the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is worth many times more than each woman, even the women who qualify at that highest Celestial level, because each man who achieves Godhood-level may have numerous God-wives, but each God-wife may have only one husband. This can only mean that each "heavenly father" is worth many times more than each "heavenly mother." And, even if the ratio were strictly one to one, the male God, not the female God, holds the priesthood authority and is the only one of the God parents to whom his earth-mortality children are allowed to pray. So Mormon women can never, NEVER achieve equality with men, no matter how outstanding or righteous the women are. That's just the way it's set up." MORMON
The first time we hear about the curse of dark, or black, skin in the Book of Mormon is 2 Nephi 5:21.
It is said that God cursed the Lamanites with black skin so they would not be enticing unto the Nephites.
Even though Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and
murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...
as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like
them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they
married with the Lamanites.
The Lamanite babies that were born to the dark-skinned Lamanites also had the sign of this curse.
How black skin is not attractive to the white-skinned Nephite people is a discussion for another time.
In Alma 3:6-7, it is recorded that the skins of the Lamanites were dark, "according to the mark which
was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their
rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just
and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord
God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and
Ishmaelitish women".
In the Bible, the Israelites who conquered the land of Canaan and later apostatized were not cursed
with dark skin to separate themselves from those sons of Jacob who remained faithful to God's
covenant. Even in the LDS teaching of the period of the Great Apostasy, white people did not turn
black and black people did not turn white.
According to 3 Nephi chapters 11 through 30, Jesus is said to visit the Nephites somewhere in the
Americas sometime around 34 A.D.
According to 4 Nephi 1:6, twenty-five years had passed away since Jesus ascended back into
heaven, from there to visit all the other lost tribes of the house of Israel. In 4 Nephi 1:10, we learn
that all the people of Nephi had become "an exceedingly fair and delightsome people". In other
words, they became white-skinned. See the footnote 10a. It links to 1 Nephi 13:15, 2 Nephi 5:21,
and Mormon 9:6.
In 1 Nephi 13:15, the Gentiles who are said to have discovered America (aka Christopher Columbus)
were physically white like the Nephites before they were slain at the great battle with the Lamanites.
The spiritually-dark Nephites were slain because they had slidden into apostasy.
Let's specifically look at Mormon 9:6. "O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto
the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having
been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day."
In Jacob 3:8, one also learns that the skin color of the Lamanites could be whiter than those of the
Nephites when they would appear before God's throne.
According to 4 Nephi 1:14-17, 66 years had passed since the arrival of Christ to the 'Americas'
(100 years from the birth of Christ). This was time when the happiest people on earth lived in the
'Americas.' Only righteous people existed. There were no Nephites, no Lamanites, "nor any manner
of -ites."
From around 100 A.D. to 200 A.D., the period of righteousness reigned. In the 201st year, sin
began to creep into the church (4 Nephi 1:24). In the 110th year, a small group of people separated
and took upon themselves the name of 'Lamanites' (4 Nephi 1:20). In the 231st year, the designation
of 'Nephites' had come back (4 Nephi 1:35). 3 other divisions also came about (Jacobites, Josephites,
and Zoramites).
4 Nephi 1:45-46 records that the Nephites had become wicked like the Lamanites. There were no
righteous except for only 3 disciples. Moroni 9:20 records that the Nephites even exceeded the
wickedness of the Lamanites. The Nephites were said to have raped the Lamanite women, torturing
them unto death, and then eating their flesh (Moroni 9:9-10). And in none of this did their skin color
become dark.
According to Mormon 1:13-14 (circa 322 A.D.), "wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole
land" and "there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because
of their wickedness and unbelief."
This was a period of total apostasy.
((In the Bible, the Israelites who conquered the land of Canaan and later apostatized were not cursed
with dark skin to separate themselves from those sons of Jacob who remained faithful to God's
covenant. Even in the LDS teaching of the period of the Great Apostasy, white people did not turn
black and black people did not turn white. ))
there is a MASSIVE countless number of things that were said taught and practiced by Joseph Smith that when brought to light seems unbelievable.
and there are things that even when I ask Mormons whether they are missionaries or senior members of their temple.....they flat out call me a liar and deceiver.....yet....the words I speak are not my own...nor are they Propaganda....they are history. things done said and taught within history....
there are actual accounts of all 30 wives Joseph Smith had
yes...historical FACT that he did indeed through a Mormon ritual bind 30 women to him, Mormon marriage
I asked a few Mormons and they replied that "IF"!!!!!!! it was true then it was as accustom in that day and age that it was old widows who could not support themselves and he was basically housing them and keeping them safe. HOWEVER history proves that this is NOT true.
seven of Joseph Smith's wives were between the ages of 20 and 14 NEVER BEFORE MARRIED
some accounts of these girls especially at the age of 14 two or three of them...I dont know the exact numbers without looking it up...but they were greatly angered disturbed even thrown into a deep depression or sickened that their fathers would force them to marry a man and they would have to share him among other women.
at least a third of the other women were already married to other Mormon men and stayed married even when they married yet again to Joseph Smith. sharing wives.
there are many other things like his prophecies that directly failed or just seemed close to crazed.
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness." Joseph Smith 1843 May 18
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, .. the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.... [T]he 14th chapter of Revelation... The hour of his judgement is come .... After ... 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890." Joseph Smith 1843 April 6
now...I could go on until my eyes bled...the information is ENDLESS.
my question....things I want to know....is if the Mormon faith is aware of these things....and if so is it a case of "rough launch yet smooth sailing" ?
and before any posts are launched for corrections or claims
all of this information is gathered through a great many sources ALL of it appearing in at LEAST four known sources supported by historians and record keepers.
again....this topic is not meant to be a troll or an attack on the Mormon faith. I just want to know if this is hidden from the Mormon faith or just excluded
(((as far as I have studied...this is pretty accurate) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM ) a far more accurate historical version of the death of Joseph Smith. )
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Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:42 pm
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 12:38 am
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:12 pm
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:28 am
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:29 am
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:38 pm
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kesuke uchiha Blaise-Ingram Well, I guess it would be convenient for the time period that Joseph Smith was in to make more excuses as to why black people would be considered lesser in some way... Slavery was still pretty common then, which is a shame. After all, the Bible says that no children shall pay for the sins of their father. So for an entire people to receive a curse that gets passed down for generations just seems contradictory to Biblical text. I still agree with you, though, Mormons are great people. I love them, I've never met one that wasn't extremely nice and well-mannered. While some doctrines may be different from the traditional Judeo-Christian church established hundreds of years beforehand, as long as Christ is in their hearts that's all that really matters. :] there is truth in what you say...though...still just the changing alone...not even counting all the hundreds of other things wrong with the religion...... the ONLY way that mormonism can look at this without directly lying to themselves...is either their leaders were lying.......or God was lying to them. and that in itself debunks the religion
Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but I'd suggest rewording posts like this if you hope to get a legit response from somebody of the LDS faith. That part at the end of the original post, "
again....this topic is not meant to be a troll or an attack on the Mormon faith" could not have been written better.
Good luck! smile |
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:47 pm
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thetikignat hozergnat kesuke uchiha Blaise-Ingram Well, I guess it would be convenient for the time period that Joseph Smith was in to make more excuses as to why black people would be considered lesser in some way... Slavery was still pretty common then, which is a shame. After all, the Bible says that no children shall pay for the sins of their father. So for an entire people to receive a curse that gets passed down for generations just seems contradictory to Biblical text. I still agree with you, though, Mormons are great people. I love them, I've never met one that wasn't extremely nice and well-mannered. While some doctrines may be different from the traditional Judeo-Christian church established hundreds of years beforehand, as long as Christ is in their hearts that's all that really matters. :] there is truth in what you say...though...still just the changing alone...not even counting all the hundreds of other things wrong with the religion...... the ONLY way that mormonism can look at this without directly lying to themselves...is either their leaders were lying.......or God was lying to them. and that in itself debunks the religion Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but I'd suggest rewording posts like this if you hope to get a legit response from somebody of the LDS faith. That part at the end of the original post, " again....this topic is not meant to be a troll or an attack on the Mormon faith" could not have been written better. Good luck! smile
lol it was not meant to be a troll.
I do not troll .....ever.
true...I was angry when I wrote it...but it was a legit concern. I want to know how certain things are justified within the LDS church |
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Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:18 am
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kesuke uchiha thetikignat hozergnat kesuke uchiha Blaise-Ingram Well, I guess it would be convenient for the time period that Joseph Smith was in to make more excuses as to why black people would be considered lesser in some way... Slavery was still pretty common then, which is a shame. After all, the Bible says that no children shall pay for the sins of their father. So for an entire people to receive a curse that gets passed down for generations just seems contradictory to Biblical text. I still agree with you, though, Mormons are great people. I love them, I've never met one that wasn't extremely nice and well-mannered. While some doctrines may be different from the traditional Judeo-Christian church established hundreds of years beforehand, as long as Christ is in their hearts that's all that really matters. :] there is truth in what you say...though...still just the changing alone...not even counting all the hundreds of other things wrong with the religion...... the ONLY way that mormonism can look at this without directly lying to themselves...is either their leaders were lying.......or God was lying to them. and that in itself debunks the religion Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but I'd suggest rewording posts like this if you hope to get a legit response from somebody of the LDS faith. That part at the end of the original post, " again....this topic is not meant to be a troll or an attack on the Mormon faith" could not have been written better. Good luck! smile lol it was not meant to be a troll. I do not troll .....ever. true...I was angry when I wrote it...but it was a legit concern. I want to know how certain things are justified within the LDS church
I don't think you're trolling smile
What I mean is if you make absolute conclusions like "them disagreeing with my point of view = them lying to themselves, their leaders lying, or God lying" before somebody moves to explain a religious belief, you may get trash responses from them that are aimed at "fighting back" instead of explaining something that can't be "proved" really from either their perspective or those against them- if that makes sense smile at the end I feel like everyone in a religious discussion can only fight with their own feelings backed by what THEY deem credible evidence-so we all just kinda gotta agree to disagree but try to see where the other is coming from if anybody wants to have a good religious discussion smile
On another note, I was curious as to your references on Joe Smith's supposed prophesies. I don't recall ever coming across those, though I have heard of another one from another Mormon leader. Could you send me the link to the reference? I'd love to look at the original out of curiosity smile |
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Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:54 pm
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thetikignat hozergnat kesuke uchiha thetikignat hozergnat kesuke uchiha Blaise-Ingram Well, I guess it would be convenient for the time period that Joseph Smith was in to make more excuses as to why black people would be considered lesser in some way... Slavery was still pretty common then, which is a shame. After all, the Bible says that no children shall pay for the sins of their father. So for an entire people to receive a curse that gets passed down for generations just seems contradictory to Biblical text. I still agree with you, though, Mormons are great people. I love them, I've never met one that wasn't extremely nice and well-mannered. While some doctrines may be different from the traditional Judeo-Christian church established hundreds of years beforehand, as long as Christ is in their hearts that's all that really matters. :] there is truth in what you say...though...still just the changing alone...not even counting all the hundreds of other things wrong with the religion...... the ONLY way that mormonism can look at this without directly lying to themselves...is either their leaders were lying.......or God was lying to them. and that in itself debunks the religion Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but I'd suggest rewording posts like this if you hope to get a legit response from somebody of the LDS faith. That part at the end of the original post, " again....this topic is not meant to be a troll or an attack on the Mormon faith" could not have been written better. Good luck! smile lol it was not meant to be a troll. I do not troll .....ever. true...I was angry when I wrote it...but it was a legit concern. I want to know how certain things are justified within the LDS church I don't think you're trolling smile What I mean is if you make absolute conclusions like "them disagreeing with my point of view = them lying to themselves, their leaders lying, or God lying" before somebody moves to explain a religious belief, you may get trash responses from them that are aimed at "fighting back" instead of explaining something that can't be "proved" really from either their perspective or those against them- if that makes sense smile at the end I feel like everyone in a religious discussion can only fight with their own feelings backed by what THEY deem credible evidence-so we all just kinda gotta agree to disagree but try to see where the other is coming from if anybody wants to have a good religious discussion smile On another note, I was curious as to your references on Joe Smith's supposed prophesies. I don't recall ever coming across those, though I have heard of another one from another Mormon leader. Could you send me the link to the reference? I'd love to look at the original out of curiosity smile
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/falseprophecies.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaOFZzMFMoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gaFFMKQYRc
the last one is the most clear
and these were just the first four I found...there are hundreds more.
thank you for speaking to me humbly and actually seeking the truth instead of jumping onto the band wagon.
I highly encourage people to seek out the truth...no matter what the religion. ALWAYS know your self as well as you know your foes in the spirit. |
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Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:06 pm
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Alright smile well like I told you in the PM, my fiance is a return mormon missionary and would probably respond a lot better than I to a lot of stuff but I can tell you what I think about a few things (like I said though..they're what I FEEL or think..my faince is more of the logical/source thinker ;p )
The mormons do actually give a lot of authority to their women. They have a lot of opportunities for leadership in the church. The mormon church, as far as i've seen, preaches that men and women are made equal. They have their leaders speak on television twice a year from utah- and if i remember right, in a few speaches men are severely chastized for degrading women or not treating them as their equals. I cant remember who said what so i'd have to ask erik if you'd like to have those sources smile
as for the book of mormon being racist, if I remember right, the black lamanites and white nephites took turns being wicked and at the end the nephites ended up being mostly bad. many times the lamanites are praised for their goodness. again i'd have to ask erik for references if you'd like them. I'm sure there were racist mormons though- I mean just cuz you are part of a religion doesnt mean you're a saint. I think there are dishonest church members in every religion but that it doesnt stand as an example for the church as a whole- for example if i remember ight, the catholics have had a sketch history with their leaders, but I think that the majority of leaders, and the catholic church, are not to be branded after the few bad examples.
Erik asked if you could link him to the examples you gave of the polygamist people married to Joe Smith (the more extreme examples) so that he could see where you were coming from- i guess context is important for his response smile
All in all, I think that Prophets can be seen with faults in every religion-but that's why we dont worship prophets. We worship only Jesus Christ, and his Father (i'm of the opinion that they are different people). The others all had their dramas, their mistakes, their issues..so I just pay attention to their teachings. I think what the mormons preach is very sweet and sincere. If they were preaching to me that I needed to adore Joe smith then i'd sure have a different reaction :s I think that's the main issue I have against religions who pray to saints and what not.
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Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:32 pm
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thetikignat hozergnat as for the book of mormon being racist, if I remember right, the black lamanites and white nephites took turns being wicked and at the end the nephites ended up being mostly bad. many times the lamanites are praised for their goodness. again i'd have to ask erik for references if you'd like them.
Forgive me if this sounds a little blunt (not very good with being subtle XP), but that still doesn't really change the fact that the Lamanites were dark-skinned. Why weren't the Nephites given the same punishment?
thetikignat hozergnat I'm sure there were racist mormons though- I mean just cuz you are part of a religion doesnt mean you're a saint. I think there are dishonest church members in every religion but that it doesnt stand as an example for the church as a whole- for example if i remember ight, the catholics have had a sketch history with their leaders, but I think that the majority of leaders, and the catholic church, are not to be branded after the few bad examples.
I agree with you here. Many atheists and agnostics also particularly like to point out the Crusades to refute Christianity, when in reality it doesn't take a very deep understanding of the Bible to understand that the Crusades were not supported by the Bible at all.
thetikignat hozergnat Erik asked if you could link him to the examples you gave of the polygamist people married to Joe Smith (the more extreme examples) so that he could see where you were coming from- i guess context is important for his response smile
I found this. The maker of the vid claims to have gathered his/her sources from Mormon sites, but I am unsure as to how credible they are. |
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Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:55 pm
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Quote: Forgive me if this sounds a little blunt (not very good with being subtle XP), but that still doesn't really change the fact that the Lamanites were dark-skinned. Why weren't the Nephites given the same punishment?
I don't know enough about the history to answer that question :s Erik should get home and to a computer by next week though so I'm piling the questions up for him :p
But anyways-since i know a bit more about the bible than the book of mormon- I can better use that as an example to explain how I could see it-
One thing i've always had a problem with as a christian (though I accept it as something I probably just don't know ALL of the facts about- so it doesnt drive me to disown the bible) is how God commanded the children of isreal to kill ALL of the previous inhabitants of the cities they were to inhabit (probably because of their wickedness) but this included ALL...men, women, children, pregnant women, and even animals in some cases..). Now in this case i'm sure there were innocent people. I consider babies as innocent. Why did they have to die? I don't know. But later on we see the children of isreal being blockheads and so God had to "clear them out" so to say- but when THEY were bad, why didn't THEY all get killed? only some were killed, most were just scattered around though. Was he playing favorites with his "chosen people"?
Did he do that with noah too? I just watched the Bible video (assuming its accurate. If it isn't,disregard this comment ;p ) and it broke my heart to see the part where the parents were desperately holding their poor children above the water and towards the ark. Why Did God only save noas family and leave the rest to die? were even the new born babies evil? I don't believe babies are born evil. So some of Noahs descendants even had issues. So what, do you have to be related to a prophet? Do you have to be a favorite to get spared? it seems odd. But I accept it because I have read the bible, prayed about it, and have felt comfort from its passages many times. I feel like it is a good book, despite what I don't understand. I don't defend racism, but perhaps mormons feel the same. They don't blindly kick against logical arguments just for the sake of being brainwashed and stubborn, but maybe they have felt so much good from the book of mormon that they feel that there must be an explanation for it that they dont know yet. Like we do and the bible- or like we feel about the catholic church (the few bad leaders not giving proof that all the leaders/ church are bad). I dont think that just because a leader has a fault means that God didnt lead the church (like the famous examples of his hand picked apostles- peter and thomas. I'm sure you know their story)
Quote: I agree with you here. Many atheists and agnostics also particularly like to point out the Crusades to refute Christianity, when in reality it doesn't take a very deep understanding of the Bible to understand that the Crusades were not supported by the Bible at all.
Though some catholic teachings bother me, I defend some branches of it for this reason. I dont know about some of the "questionable motives" that some point out, but I have seen the good that the teachings do in general. Like loving your neighbor. I feel like catholics for the most part have been a branch of christianity less known for preaching "hateful" things at their pulpit. It's a beautiful concept. smile
Quote: I found this. The maker of the vid claims to have gathered his/her sources from Mormon sites, but I am unsure as to how credible they are.
You know, I'm not qualified to address Joe Smith's specific history on polygamy but I have studied up on it a bit on my own. Mostly accounts from the bible, and from actually a mormon named emeline b. wells. It's amazing. Anyways, I can give you my personal opinions on that if its polygamy that you view as horrible- but i'm not sure if you have a problem with polygamy or JUST the way Joe Smith practiced it. Let me know smile |
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Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:00 pm
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