[3.5/Pathfinder] Upgrading Technology

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

So, I'm starting a Pathfinder campaign soon. The thing is, I don't feel like a medieval RP at the moment. I've been playing a lot of Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age lately, so I'm in the mood for something different now. That's why I want to play a Pathfinder campaign with an other than medieval technology level. The technology level I have chosen is roughly equivalent to 1885 on Earth. Now, I am anticipating that someone is going to ask me why I won't just play D20 Modern. The D20 Past expansion includes rules for RPing in the Wild West, after all. The reason is that I don't like D20 Modern's class system at all. I much prefer the Pathfinder class system. Furthermore, I still want a fantasy setting with magic users, elves, monsters, and all the other stuff that makes D&D/Pathfinder great. Since I lack the D20 Modern Urban Arcana supplement, I'm somewhat hampered in this regard.

What I plan to do is go through the Pathfinder classes and modify class abilities as necessary to account for the introduction of firearms as the primary method of combat (such as editing abilities that apply to bows and swords and adding defense bonuses to account for the lack of armor). Then I will go through my copies of D20 Modern and D20 Past to find feats (especially firearms feats, which will be greatly needed to make this campaign work) that will fit within the tech level. I will do the same with skills and spells.

All of this should be relatively easy, though definitely time consuming, and is not what I posted this thread for. There is something I need advice on: how to handle the difference in damage between firearms and melee weapons. I want large knives, axes, and swords (I believe that swords would be more useful than firearms against certain foes, such as vampires or foes that charge into melee in massive groups) to do more damage than firearms (this is generally the case in real life), but I want guns to be more effective in most circumstances other than close quarters combat (which is also the case in real life). So, I need a way to make the majority of melee weapons do more damage than a gun, but a gun still needs to be the more effective weapon in the majority of circumstances. I also need a way to make shotguns more lethal than they are in D20 Modern, where there are few reasons to carry one, as they do the same damage as a rifle with inferior range and ammunition capacity. Can anyone offer suggestions?  

[Disciple of Sakura]

There's a start-up attempting to do a Modern supplement for Pathfinder. I haven't checked it out, but you can find it here.  

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

Disciple of Sakura

There's a start-up attempting to do a Modern supplement for Pathfinder. I haven't checked it out, but you can find it here.

YES! This is perfect. The information here will be a great help in creating this campaign. Thanks a lot.  

[Arc Vembris]

I-I-I-O_O-I-I-I

So, I need a way to make the majority of melee weapons do more damage than a gun, but a gun still needs to be the more effective weapon in the majority of circumstances.

I don't understand what you're asking. You want melee weapons to be better except for most of the time? Don't raise melee damage, whatever you do. Lower firearm damage if necessary, but that will affect how certain modern feats affect the damage dice. You can give your monsters a small amount of ballistic resistance, perhaps if you want guns to be less effective in a given circumstance.

I-I-I-O_O-I-I-I

I also need a way to make shotguns more lethal than they are in D20 Modern, where there are few reasons to carry one, as they do the same damage as a rifle with inferior range and ammunition capacity. Can anyone offer suggestions?

I don't know if you have access to it, but Ultramodern Firearms has a revised shotgun.

http://www.d20resources.com/
Here's the modern content released via the SRD, which does include the Urban Arcana stuff, but not Ultramodern Firearms.  

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

Arc Vembris

I-I-I-O_O-I-I-I

So, I need a way to make the majority of melee weapons do more damage than a gun, but a gun still needs to be the more effective weapon in the majority of circumstances.

I don't understand what you're asking. You want melee weapons to be better except for most of the time? Don't raise melee damage, whatever you do. Lower firearm damage if necessary, but that will affect how certain modern feats affect the damage dice.

I-I-I-O_O-I-I-I

I also need a way to make shotguns more lethal than they are in D20 Modern, where there are few reasons to carry one, as they do the same damage as a rifle with inferior range and ammunition capacity. Can anyone offer suggestions?

I don't know if you have access to it, but Ultramodern Firearms has a revised shotgun.

http://www.d20resources.com/
Here's the modern content released via the SRD, which does include the Urban Arcana stuff, but not Ultramodern Firearms.

I want melee weapons to do more damage than firearms, but I want firearms to be more useful (which is how it is in real life).

A preliminary idea is that a .45 revolver may do 1d8 damage and a knife 2d6 (a sword or hatchet 2d10), but moving into melee distance would provoke an attack of opportunity if the guy has a gun (reflecting that if you see someone charging you, you are likely to try and shoot them before they get close enough to stab you). Guns get a -4 penalty to attack rolls once the enemy is in melee range, however. If shooting at someone within 15 feet but not in melee range you would get a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

Shotguns would get 2d12 damage within the first range increment, 2d6 within the second, and 1d6 after that, getting +2 to attack rolls in the first range increment and -2 to attack rolls in all other range increments (this is in addition to the normal attack penalty for range increments, not instead of it).

This is all preliminary, of course. Suggestions and critiques are welcome.  

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

I'm thinking that in this world an equivalent of the maxim gun was invented in 1870, not 1885 as in real life, and magic-assisted production makes them cheaper than real maxims were, so maxim-style machine guns are in common use by those who have a need for such weapons, namely the military. They are just as heavy and complicated as real maxims were, however, so it's rare to see them outside of fixed defense positions, and they are seldom found outside military or militia hands.

Furthermore, magical enchantments can make wood and stone stronger than it would otherwise be, which means forts would better able to withstand artillery fire than real life forts of the time period and therefore in widespread use as a sort of relatively cheap and easy to build pseudo-castle. I love the idea of putting maxim guns on top of fort walls. It would make fortress warfare so much more fun (unless you are the poor b*****d attacking the fort).  

[Arc Vembris]

I recommend against cobbling rules of this level of detail in an effort to be more 'realistic'. Now I don't know from guns or gun combat so I won't judge how your view of what people actually use guns for works into your rule tweaks, and if you like the mechanics that you come up with then that's what works for you. I just think it's a lot of crunch for a game that won't ultimately be titled "Guns: The Shootening".

To draw on the Eberron line of reasoning, if there's all this magic, why use a gun? Maybe a wand of lightning bolt would be better. If a gun does 1d8, why not use a longbow?  

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

Arc Vembris

I recommend against cobbling rules of this level of detail in an effort to be more 'realistic'. Now I don't know from guns or gun combat so I won't judge how your view of what people actually use guns for works into your rule tweaks, and if you like the mechanics that you come up with then that's what works for you. I just think it's a lot of crunch for a game that won't ultimately be titled "Guns: The Shootening".

To draw on the Eberron line of reasoning, if there's all this magic, why use a gun? Maybe a wand of lightning bolt would be better. If a gun does 1d8, why not use a longbow?

Gunpowder cartridges are cheaper, easier, and faster to create than a magic wand by a massive margin, making guns more economical by a longshot. Also, under my house rules only an arcane magic user could control a magic wand. A member of another class could try, but the results would be rather unpredictable due to their lack of training with magic.

A longbow is nowhere near as easy to become proficient with as a rifle and possesses inferior range and penetration. I reduced longbow damage to 1d6 in reflection of this. They also have shorter range increments than rifles. Handguns, meanwhile, are much handier than a longbow when a small weapon is needed.

The metagame explanation is that I like the idea of mixing guns and magic very much.  

[Slave Xaccheus]

I-I-I-O_O-I-I-I

Arc Vembris

I recommend against cobbling rules of this level of detail in an effort to be more 'realistic'. Now I don't know from guns or gun combat so I won't judge how your view of what people actually use guns for works into your rule tweaks, and if you like the mechanics that you come up with then that's what works for you. I just think it's a lot of crunch for a game that won't ultimately be titled "Guns: The Shootening".

To draw on the Eberron line of reasoning, if there's all this magic, why use a gun? Maybe a wand of lightning bolt would be better. If a gun does 1d8, why not use a longbow?

Gunpowder cartridges are cheaper, easier, and faster to create than a magic wand by a massive margin, making guns more economical by a longshot. Also, under my house rules only an arcane magic user could control a magic wand. A member of another class could try, but the results would be rather unpredictable due to their lack of training with magic.

A longbow is nowhere near as easy to become proficient with as a rifle and possesses inferior range and penetration. I reduced longbow damage to 1d6 in reflection of this. They also have shorter range increments than rifles. Handguns, meanwhile, are much handier than a longbow when a small weapon is needed.

The metagame explanation is that I like the idea of mixing guns and magic very much.

There's two good supplements to use:
d20 Steam & Steel
Legends & Lairs: Sorcery & Steam.