Once again....Need peoples thoughts.

[Seiryna]

Once again I find myself wondering if my exception bar is to high, or I just have really really bad luck, when it comes to D&D.
-- anyways here is the argument, and just wondering what peoples thoughts on it. making a rogue for a game, don't know the level yet, but that doesn't matter. long story short her backstory is basicly at a young age she ran away from her home, and found refuge with an old man, who used to be a great rogue/assassin back in his younger days, seeing potentional in my char he started teaching, and imparting his knowledge on to her, thast the short version, so bare with me.
-- now here is the argument. the possible DM for the game is saying I'm meta gaming cause I'm having my Rogue already know that lead blocks some forms of divination, and that breaking/removing the lower jaw of dead people, or killing them with out being seen stops spells like speak with dead from working. as apprently that is something only a high level char would know.
-- my thing is knowledge has nothing to do with a chars level, merely what she does or does not know, and knowledge checks are more for obscure things like knowing what a certain monster is weak to, or what a strange symbol means. knowing lead blocks some divination spells, in a magic setting, just seems like common knowledge.
-- If you want to be a blacksmith, you get a blacksmith to teach you, first you must learn how to do something, then you get to do it. or look at batman <.< he wasn't always batman, he was taught a certain set of skills and used them to turn in to batman. XD
-- so my thing is my char. in her backstory was simply giving the knowledge on what to do, and now in the game shes going to be actually putting that knowledge to use for the first time. sense your D&D char was something before they joined the party.
-- on a side note my backstory does cover 10years of my chars life, before joining the party.
-- to me meta gaming is.... this is my level1 fighter, he has never left the city before and somehow knows that to kill the dragon king you have to shoot him in the left eye with a silver arrow on the forth day of the forth month on a full moon between the hours of 2 and 3 <.< that's meta gaming.
-- also setting is prolly gonna be Ebbron. so meta gaming, not meta gaming, and would you allow a char like this in to your game?  

[Seiryna]

lol just got this reply from a friend that saw this lol it made me laugh.
"so basically they (the DM) disdains from anything that's perceivable? pah! it may be fantasy but even in fantasy there has to a realistic structure, otherwise it's random none senceicle rubbish lol dose he refute it? cause you decided to build a character based around their personal attributes and she turned out better than their hour long effort to make a "perfect" player? and you have a logical way to explain why shes know what she does. makes sence if their an assassin, think the DM is just mad cause now he can't use all those divination spells on you, god forbid, he actually has to put some thought in to catching your rogue if he wants to XD"

yes god forbid we make the DMs think...what was I thinking....
alos might add another quote lol "I mean my backstory does cover 10years lol my char. might be blond, but come on 10years just to learn how to pick a lock...she's not THAT blond"
"Knowledge isn't experience, experience is knowing how to apply said knowledge." just because I know how to weld a ring, doesn't mean I'm an epic level welder....tho I wish it did  

[Raganui Minamoto]

Well, my first suggestion is to clean up that paragraph so that people can actually understand it. There's this thing called the Enter Key and Shift Key...

Yea, I know, That was assish of me, but I couldn't tell where one sentence ended and the next started... no offense, but it had the look of what you'd type if someone just sort of chattered on and on about something. You know the types.  

[Seiryna]

Raganui Minamoto

Well, my first suggestion is to clean up that paragraph so that people can actually understand it. There's this thing called the Enter Key and Shift Key...

Yea, I know, That was assish of me, but I couldn't tell where one sentence ended and the next started... no offense, but it had the look of what you'd type if someone just sort of chattered on and on about something. You know the types.

it's 4am for me <.<' I'm half asleep but i'll try cleaned it up as best I could, given the time of day it is for me XD  

[Yurro]

Personally, the 'knowledge' on how do things seems logical to me. If an old timer rogue taught you how to stay hidden (even from certain magics [Detect evil! XD ]), and how to assassinate people. (ie snapping necks, jaws, whatever.) Also, if confronted with a spellcaster that uses his hands to cast the majority of his spells, wouldn't it make sense to atleast snap some of his fingers? So the same knowledge should be applicable to spells needing verbal components, snap his jaw, cut out the tongue, etc.

Blacksmiths aren't born 'blacksmith-y', kings aren't born 'king-y', so why the heck shouldn't rogues need a mentor if not some years on the streets to teach them things? As well as the fact that you may 'know' what to do, that doesn't mean you 'know' that you can do it. Kind of like swimming, you can be taught how to swim without actually swimming, but it really comes down to the actual practice of the act. Will you be able to use the knowledge while fearing that you'll drown, or get some practice strokes in and finally swim?

I'm currently in the forge making a new character (Forest Gnome Ranger) with a Dire Badger as his animal companion. Course after looking over the Races of Stone book I found an interesting 'Racial Level Substitute' that allows a gnome ranger to speak with their (burrowing) animal companion at will. Personally this opens more RPing potential then anything else to me, but I have to see how the DM sees it before actually finishing my character.  

[bamaotaku]

I can definitely see your line of thought, but I think I also can sort of relate to where the DM might be coming from. The way you're building your character COULD be seen as metagaming if you're looking to give yourself an immunity (protection from some Divination) early on. Not saying that I agree with the DM's call on the matter, but just shedding light on what the issue could be.

The way I've always seen it, in a world where the limitations are as great or small as the DM's imagination, something like that really shouldn't be a big deal. Who's to say that, later in level, some high level Diviner hasn't developed a way to bypass the lead protection? You don't do it just to screw over the party, of course. But it's those little "surprises" that keep players on their toes and force them to think on their feet. Vice versa, there responses to what you throw at them will sometimes keep the DM from slacking off.  

[SporkMaster5000]

I can see where both you and the DM are coming from as well. Common knowledge in-world is one of those sticky points where you have to draw a line about what a person might just know, how much you can know from your backstory, and when you should be making a knowledge check. I also don't know that there's really a right or wrong call on the matter. yeah it sounds like he's being kind of a hard-a**, but if your teacher wasn't a diviner where'd he get the idea to test out the lead vs. divination thing, and when did he ever try speaking to the dead? If your DM is saying your teacher wouldn't be high enough level to know this then that sucks, but its a call i think he's within his rights to make.  

[Arc Vembris]

There's a brilliant mechanic in-game for solving arguments about what your character knows or doesn't know. It's called the Knowledge check. Does something in my background allow me to know that detail? Roll a knowledge check.

What's that you say? Knowledge checks are for obscure things? Handicapping spellcasters is obscure stuff. The extent of common knowledge is determined by the DM, and we know what his stance is on this. Now you're a rogue, and with Trap Sense under your belt you can presumably be familiar enough with magicness to disarm a magical trap, but there's nothing more to guarantee your expertise on other topics outside of your word against the DM's, and the DM is always going to win that argument. Otherwise everyone would be raised in a library by an eccentric old (insert character's class here)

It's also rather common that higher-level characters in Eberron are few and far between. A vet of the Last War is typically about 2nd level, and Barons of the Dragonmarked houses are upwards of 6th or 8th, so any suspicion cast upon your mysterious master isn't unfounded.  

[JinKazamaru]

I'm not on the DM's side nor yours my thoughts on the topic...
Depending on the level and such your DM could think you know far more than you should... if your character is higher level its hard to tell what they do or don't know... disregarding player knowledge... so your master trained you in all these arts... do you know how to apply them? do you even remember? that is where knowledge comes into mind... seeing how things are... its has if you already have high level knowledge about the divine... perhaps you should build your character on such? because its as if your a Rogue... that already knows everything a cleric/paladin so should know... without even putting points in it or having first hand experience.  

[Avatar129142137]

I say that you're right, and DM is being an a**, but HEY.

It can go either way depending upon the situation!  

[Deadusernamelol]

I find there aren't many good Dungeon Masters anymore. It's why I've almost given up on all games that aren't run in real life. I find Meta-gaming is where people use the smoke and fire method of playing D&D. Say the party decides to split up and one party gets into a fight that could potentially end up with a half-party wipe. But the second party, who are already busy with other work "decides" to change their mind and head back to assist the other members of the party. Only to rush back cause they're worried about anything that may happen.

Smoke and fire.
Player: "Do I hear the fighting?"
DM:"From across town? No."
Player: "Can I see the smoke or fire?"
DM: "...The fight only started. It takes a few minutes for any fire to build enough flame to produce anything you can see from where you are."
Player: "I head back."
DM: "You are stopped by common sense."
Player: "Hey! I can change my mind and go back."
DM: "You failed your will save. Stop meta-gaming, douche."

Though don't get me wrong, there are many different levels and types of meta-gaming. Also, seems to me like you're never going to find a DM you like, Lilly. And I say that with all honesty.

 

[Avatar129142137]

that made me lol  

[Seiryna]

read all the replys lol good points all of them XD but as for what is common knowledge, here is my thing, now that my brain is more awake. Divination magic is common place, everyone knows about it. not wanting to get caught as a rogue doing something you shouldn't be doing, common knowledge. putting 2 and 2 together = I'm gonna ask someone how to stop it, or lessen the chance. so in that matter there would be no knowledge check required, cause last I checked asking a question doesn't require one to roll a knowledge check.
-- now I could see where a high level knowledge check would be required in order for her to try to explain why/how it works.

and at Carthinator lol no I found a DM I liked lol he just wanted me to break off my 'marriage' and date him 2 months in to the game lol /sigh also lol at the fire and smoke thing XD that made me laugh to, cause I know people like that....sadly.

also I didn't find this DM he sorta found me lol.  

[Arc Vembris]

Well sure she could always find someone in-game to blab the deepest secrets of divination-busting, but this relies on the DM A) providing an NPC who knows, and B) having that NPC willing to tell you. Just because everyone in the setting is familiar with divination spells doesn't mean they know all the details about them, or are even correct in what they do know. Again, this is a DM call.  

[bamaotaku]

Just because magic is KNOWN of, doesn't mean that everyone would necessarily know all the finer details. You can assume pretty much every person over the age of 4 knows what a gun is, but how many of them know 1) how a gun ACTUALLY works other than knowing that pulling the trigger makes the bullet go or 2) know what sort of materials are capable of actually stopping a bullet from killing you.

So, while your average Rogue (lets use level 5 for the sake of argument), may be aware that it's possible to locate someone using divination magic, he wouldn't know the details of it such as how the spell is cast, WHO can cast said spell (whether it's arcane, divine, or psionic), the range of the spell, or how to defend against it.

Of course, just to restate what's been said before, it all really comes down to what the DM allows or doesn't allow. No one really likes it when they come up with what seems like a good idea only to have the DM disallow it, but more often than not, it's not due to any innate "douche factor" on the DM's behalf.