Restoring the ATG's former Glory

[AlcoholicPancake]

Back when I was new here, and even up until shortly before I got back, the ATG was very close, much like a family. I've noticed, as well as many others ( Almost Everyone ) that this is no longer the case. We all used to be so close, and such good of friends, now we're constantly at each others throats. We don't want the guild to seem like that for when new members join up, do we? I for one, want new members to feel just as welcome here as old members, and would wish to extend the reach of our "Family" to anyone who wishes to join this guild, rather than sticking to inside jokes only the oldies understand, or allowing them to see older member argue, or even get yelled at BY older members, as I've seen happen once or twice.

This thread was put in the IDD forum because I want IN DEPTH DISCUSSION on how to fix this damn problem. Start cracking team!

- Discuss -
+How to bring back our unity we once had+
+How to make newer members feel just as welcome as the older members+
+Ways that we can settle all these annoying disputes without having to lose a member+
+WHY people are being so hostile towards one another+  

[Morrosseth]

... Ice breaker?

From my experience:

The first three weeks was difficult mainly because it seemed like I was ignored. Whether it be because I have no idea what the hell people were talking about as it was riddled with mentions of 'Jimmy' and a 'bar' and people off cuddling with their 'older brothers/sisters/wives/kraken-tentacle-monsters', or because I was new and had yet to pass a quarantine phase or something, conversations were hard to get into. And then the few times I was talked to, it was mostly to made some snarky response or to yell at me to quit quoting. (Admittedly, it was long, but long is relative and my long isn't your long.) I have no idea why simply telling me was out of question. Being ignored along with the fact that ATG already has an intricate history creates a suffocating effect I guess. It's no longer so much that you're joining a new guild as that you are intruding on a little clique where you are not wanted.

As for why fights break out... [Do note that I'm new and am probably not in an order to make a diagnosis but this is kinda common I guess...]

You lot are changing too much. People probably aren't aware of themselves changing or other people changing, and hence assuming things will turn out fine. Well, not people aren't reacting to old gestures as they do, and people aren't exactly treating others as they once were. While one might have been more resilient before and bounce back easily, they no longer can, or they may take it differently. On the flip side, people who react differently aren't exactly voicing it either. When you lot do voice things, it tends to be either vague or equally snarky....

Though I wonder. People here seem quite in touch with people even off line, so I wonder if people are aware that others are fleshy, human being behind another computer screen. I mean, by nature, I'm a pretty ******** up, snarky, and sarcastic person, but I know when to shut the hell up and not say anything. If people are having family troubles, that is NOT the night I'd pick a fight or say something potentially stupid. It seems people are forgetting to take that into consideration or people just aren't voicing that there are problems well enough...

And for the love of God people, if you need to vent, there's an Angst Thread or something. Don't take it where people are going to frequent. =3= If it isn't everyone's problem, don't take it somewhere where it _will_ become someone's problem and you know you're probably gonna be hurt by some off hand comment...

Like I said. New person + 15 year = Listen if you want. tl;dr?

EDIT:: I laugh if no one else posts here. Though I don't blame anyone. Posting here is like a confession, and no one wants that...  

[Elcia]

I'd like to comment that our little wikki thing might make things easier for new members to find out what the hell we are taking about sometimes.

I'll have more to add latter...  

[Morrosseth]

No one knows the wikki _exists_ except for the older members. I was just lucky I was around the one time it was mentioned two months back.

And I re-emphasis my point. Inside jokes alienate people. (Not to say never use them, but come on guys... Frequently?) You can know why it's funny, but you can't really be a part of it. It wasn't your story after all.  

[AlcoholicPancake]

@Morro - Your first post was well thought out, and for being only 15, it really shows your intelligence. Those ARE some of the problems we face. Them again, when new members join, I don't see it as an outsider coming into our "Clique" I see it as a new viewpoint to try to see things and understand from. I've always tried to be as kind as I could towards newer members, and I don't wish to alienate the newer ones, and I'm sure many others don't want that either.

I won't deny that newer members ARE given the cold shoulder very often, and I think that's 1 point we should start improving on. More kindness to the newer members, and the members who don't post much. We should be much more nice to those members so they feel they have more reason to come back, make them feel like part of the family, so they know that if they want a nice little escape from the world, that the ATG is the place to go to sit back, relax, and just goof off with some fellow crazies who are tired of the world's stress.

Another point you made is that you know when to be quiet during a situation, which is something that some members here, myself too at times, are guilty of failing to do. Then again, I've grown so accustomed to the regulars here that I forget that the newer members may not understand my sense of humor, which I'll admit can be very sick/sexist/racist at times, but never fully serious. I suppose it's another thing we have to work on. Watching what we say and knowing when to stop because not everyone knows our sense of humor yet. It's best to, at least if you're going to still keep that kind of joking around, to ease into it, instead of starting off with "So I punched some b***h in the c**t the other day..." Many would find that offensive, though some of the older members who understand that person's sense of humor and joking style, may find it a bit funny.

Soo, Points to work on so far:

Kindness and being more welcoming to newer members.
and
Knowing when to stop joking around and be serious, or when to just keep quiet all together.

I like your ideas, and I hope you keep them coming. If you could, please redirect or tell the ATGers about this thread in case they've yet to see or hear about it.

Also

@Elcia - As morro said, not many new members will know about the wiki, and it's not super up to date... So even if they did, they may not understand the jokes still. Either way, I eagerly await whatever ideas you have on making the guild a better, more friendly place.

=3  

[Erverain]

They say that familiarity breeds contempt, and in most cases I'd tend to agree.
As Morro said, sometimes we just don't know when to quit picking at someone or something. And we do tend to treat newcomers with general disdain, regardless if they deserve it or not.
Heh, it just struck me that the ATG is acting much like any civilization that has ever walked the earth. After a period of time, complacency and forgetfulness obscure the roots of our culture, and we degrade until we either fall apart into separate entities or are consumed by another culture.
We're forgetting where we came from, and this is why we can't look at where we're going.
So, in an effort to get back to that time, wherein the members treated each other with care, I propose a "leave the war at the door" policy. Easier said than done, I know.
...If this post doesn't make much sense, then it probably doesn't. I can never seem to talk right when it is important.  

[Morrosseth]

[I'm most active in times of crisis. Traaa~]

And if anyone's interested in knowing... I think on these things too much. As well as what went wrong, it doesn't really matter unless I figure out _why_ it went wrong. Preventing certain things from happening is one thing, but other things may happen... I'm obsessive I guess.

I had originally thought that in regard to new members, people don't remember what it's like to be a new member anymore? I mean, ATG has a rich culture and history already, and I guess that means it's been around since quite a while. The people who've been around for forever can't be expected to remember the experiences.

Though I ran this theory by with Celes just to see if I had anything wrong since I haven't been here too long to get clues off everything... She actually brought up something interesting--that people technically hadn't forgot. They just never experienced it. The in-group that exists today didn't exist at the time so finding a place hadn't been all too much of a feat. There was no 'family' to impose on.

And now, they DEFINITELY can't be expected to know what people feel like just entering. They can welcome all they'd like, but it's still weird to see you guys so close and wondering exactly where we are. (It be a bitter existence...) As a result, new members never stuck around ATG long enough to form a 'middle group'. There aren't any not-new-but-not-old members to ease this huge gap. Naturally, the gap got bigger and bigger.

So old people can't relate to new people. New people don't know how to interact with old people. And there's no one in between to ease the transition. It's a case of the king not knowing how his peasants are doing because there are no officials. The peasants can't contact the king either, as there's too great a gap and no one to act as the liason.

... Anyway, just my take on it. Problems usually stem from miscommunication or lack thereof. Feel free to shred it to pieces.  

[invisible-weirdo]

Ok so I've only been in the ATG for a few months, but I'll share my two (rather babbly) cents worth anyway.

Much like Morro, my first couple weeks here made me feel alienated. I felt like I had to prove to everyone else that I wasn't a complete idiot, which quite frankly, is something that new members shouldn't need to do. They should feel welcome the moment they join the guild, instead of weeks afterwards. I've also noticed (or perhaps imagined) that when a newbie posts something, people seem to look down on them. I mean, I can understand that people want to keep the ATG a great place to actually have conversation without the personal attacks, gang-ups, and idiocy of the main forums, but assuming that every new person that walks through those cyber doors is a n00b is not the way to do so. If they truly are a n00b, they will break enough rules to get them reprimanded enough times to turn them off of the guild and they will go away eventually.
(And also, I wish people would realize that someone's inability to spell does not automatically make them an idiot. I've RPed with several people who obviously think before typing anything down, but can't type worth s**t. Yes, it makes all the grammar and spelling nazis of the guild cringe with every 'liek' that graces the page, but that's really no grounds to immediately think that they have the mental capacity of a retarded squirrel. Because that's essentially the same as meeting someone in real life with an incredibly strong foreign accent, and immediately coming to the conclusion that you hate their guts.)

...I know that this is more of the same of what Morro said in her first post, but really, I think that this is the ATG's greatest flaw.
I'll likely think up something else that needs fixing later, but at the moment, this is the only issue that comes to mind (because I am sick and food-deprived)...so yeah.  

[AlcoholicPancake]

Ahhh, another point to add to what we need to do then, stop being so judgemental and give people a chance.

I do remember being new, and I'll admit, there was no in - crowd at that time. It was more... just random people posting until we all became close and started becoming more familiar with each other and everyone's posting styles/mannerisms.

I see where you're coming from with that Morro and Invisible, but it does bring up a pretty tricky question... HOW do we make them feel more welcome? I mean, I know may people post in the Introductions thread offering advice and help to newer members to newer members along with their introductions, and telling them to feel free to PM if they ever need help or have a question or idea for the quild, but what can we do to stop alienating newer members, and make them feel welcome right from the get go?

Also,

@Invis - I've noticed that too... The feeling that the newer people have to prove themselves to the guild. It's been on my mind for a while now believe it or not, but I can't think of an easy way to eradicated this problem. Many members DO try to make people feel welcome right away, but then after saying nice things, I notice many of us go back to our normal conversations with the oldies or familiar members...

@Erve - I understand what you mean, and I agree. I also agree with the "Leave the war at the door" policy, but as you said, that's something much easier said than done. I just wish that if people had a problem with another member, that they would take it up in PMs with them, and try to resolve it in a friendly, civilized way... That's asking a lot, and I know it's not easy to do, but I just wish there was a way to make it easier. Possibly if you have someone act as the third party to keep things in order, and to keep things civil, but then you're dragging someone else into a dispute, and they might not stay as the 3rd party, choose a side, and then it becomes a snowballing problem with just more people arguing about it... Another thing we'll have to discuss to try and figure out how to fix or come to terms in settling easier with less losses.  

[Morrosseth]

I'm just making it a personal little thing to try to talk to people I haven't seen around before. If it's someone old, then I'm getting closer, and if it's someone new, maybe they won't run off. I don't know, maybe if people make a mental note to do that every so often. Not like, you have to stalk new members and reply to their posts within 5 seconds of it coming up--that's scary--but yeah. o_o;;  

[AlcoholicPancake]

Well, I think that it's a great start, and I'll try to do that too. Seems like a great way to make them feel more welcomed and at ease. Plus, if someone talks to them, maybe it'll get rid of some of that tension of trying to make a post to "Prove" themselves, or prevent them from feeling alienated.

Heading out for a bit, I'll try to be back on later tonight, but if I can't get back on, I'll be on tomorrow. Peace!  

[Sanzoskitsune]

I've noticed that this is a problem that we've had for a while. Its not just recently that new members have felt like there's a clique-like feeling in the guild. I think the most important thing for us to do is stop acting like we are so much better than the new members. We have a tendency to jump down their throats for mistakes, I admit when I'm in a bad mood I have a tendency to do that as well, but we need to watch ourselves when we do that.  

[Kalstolyn]

Kals is questing again!

Um the ATG Wiki is linked in one of the stickied posts. Just thought I would point that out. If people thought to look there when coming to a new guild, they would find that. Also, the Wiki is out of date because PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN USING IT! I feel like I wasted my time writing that comprehensive article on how to write and edit pages in the wiki without pissing anyone off.

I have to say that I lurked in the ATG for a good month or so before I started posting and making my presence known, I wanted to get to know how things ran around here before jumping in and making a total fool of myself.

Morro -- I honestly think that I'm part of that middle group you described back there, but I also have very little tolerance for people who don't show what I consider to be a basic amount of common sense and courtesy. Things like posting threads that are in gross violation of the guild's rules before bothering to read the Welcome thread or not having the basic respect for the reader to do a quick spell check or refrain form using txt language rub me horribly the wrong way. It's not newcomers that I treat with disdain, it's people who can't be bothered to act like they have brains in their heads. I try to be as civil as I can but honestly, I have a learning disability. This means I am sometimes impulsive and hit the post button before I've thought things through all the way. I try to go back and delete my more idiotic posts as soon as I realise they are idiotic. It also means that I don't understand why other people can't exercise basic powers of observation and problem solving skills if I can do it.

It took me several months before I ever posted in the phunkeh thread and honestly, I rarely go there even now. I feel like I'm intruding on a private conversation between old friends when I go in there.

I have very little tolerance as well for certain individuals in the guild when they act in certain ways. The list is short but I think everyone knows the extent of that. I try really hard to curb my reactions and keep my interaction with these few individuals as minimal as possible for the sake of public peace. I do occasionally tell one of them to stop being an asshat when I think it is needed though. And yes, I'm talking about more than one person.

In summary, the non-oldbies but not newbies like myself are at a loss just as much as the newbies are. the ATG is just about the only place I go on Gaia anymore, and I rarely have a reason to post here anymore. The reason newbies are looked down on or treated with caution is that the reasonable ones behave much like myself, lurking at first to get a feel for the place before easing in, and the ones who make themselves visible are the "omgz lyke i can has frineds/golds now plz kthx" types.

I also think a lot of the people here have changed. Jimmy used to be friendly, for instance. and a buttload of people have either vanished from the guild or gone inactive/reverted to lurking.

My biggest suggestion is to encourage the guild to pull together as a community again. Encourage participation in the IRC chat room. Resurrect the ATG Talk Show in a format that involves more people. Get more people using and editing the Wiki. This community has become stagnant, and we need to stir it up and get it growing and evolving again! What ever happened to the free art thread? I think it's at the bottom of the creative commons subforum. Why isn't it at the top? If transition is too rough on the newbies, why don't we institute a welcoming committee of sorts, people who are willing to be extra friendly to new members and give them pointers, show them around the guild, and introduce them to people?

Just some long, rambling thoughts on the subject...

Kals' Collaborative Crossword Puzzle!

PM for details!

 

[aretoo]

Well... to be honest, I really DO try to give all our new fellow guildies a chance, and if they're not adhering to the rules, I try to gently point them in the right direction before their threads get locked, and try to at least say "hi". Since Phunkeh is a hang-out thread, I do tend to talk a lot in there... My bad, eh? maybe I'm just not trying hard enough... sad  

[Shram]

There is nothing wrong with talking in the hangout thread or Pointing people in the right Direction Aretoo.
I just woke up and read this entire thread and I think this is good for ourselves to Think about what we are doing wrong and not what Others are doing wrong. A "I admit I could have not done things so and so", as well as discussing what everyone can do together to help.

I know I don't really say much of my opinions but that's because I really don't have any right now. I need to reread it all and think about it longer as I've been lurking to much to really have much say on anything going on here.
as for how I have been acting, well... I need to write more and more considerate I guess as I am starting to get blunt like sav once was.