Being good just with items?

[Lahlooooouh]

I was playing a gaian and he wouldn't play me without items. The entire time we played with items and we were even. Still, do you ever just know that feeling when you are playing someone and you know you are better, there is just some bull s**t going on. It was one of those. Finally I play him with no items and he can't even touch me.

I am sure a lot of you guys can relate to what I am saying. Unless you are the guy who will play someone, just as long as it is always by your rules.

I am just happy I got the last win. It will make me sleep better tonight. lol I am lame. ahha  

[General Lea]

Well, I've never had that experience personally, but I'm sure that he was just trying to make himself look better.  

[Einherjar O D I N]

Items = the suck. In my opinion anyway.

Blackskull, you should add me so we can play sometime. No items, 3 stock? I'd like to think you'd know what stages are okay or not.  

[Lahlooooouh]

SilentBlackTiger

Items = the suck. In my opinion anyway.

Blackskull, you should add me so we can play sometime. No items, 3 stock? I'd like to think you'd know what stages are okay or not.

Sure, sounds good. I play random stages usually. Whenever you are online and see that I am just message me I will probably be able to play.  

[Mokie7]

I understand why people play without items, but it takes skill to use items to begin with. Just the fact that you have to get to them and knock your opponents away when they try to get items of their own involves a certain practice in reaction and option-weighing. Not to mention, there's the importance of Location Location Location when it comes to proximity mines and pokeballs.

But I don't pity those who suddenly find themselves helpless without items. Those people have been training themselves not to use items and when they're faced with items, they just can't handle it. They lack discipline in the art of items.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

I understand why people play without items, but it takes skill to use items to begin with. Just the fact that you have to get to them and knock your opponents away when they try to get items of their own involves a certain practice in reaction and option-weighing. Not to mention, there's the importance of Location Location Location when it comes to proximity mines and pokeballs.

But I don't pity those who suddenly find themselves helpless without items. Those people have been training themselves not to use items and when they're faced with items, they just can't handle it. They lack discipline in the art of items.

It takes much, much, much more practice to be good without items then with them. There's always the element of luck with items on where they spawn and whatnot.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

I understand why people play without items, but it takes skill to use items to begin with. Just the fact that you have to get to them and knock your opponents away when they try to get items of their own involves a certain practice in reaction and option-weighing. Not to mention, there's the importance of Location Location Location when it comes to proximity mines and pokeballs.

But I don't pity those who suddenly find themselves helpless without items. Those people have been training themselves not to use items and when they're faced with items, they just can't handle it. They lack discipline in the art of items.

It takes much, much, much more practice to be good without items then with them. There's always the element of luck with items on where they spawn and whatnot.

I disagree, though. Training up your reaction time and focusing on the environment as well as your opponent takes quite a bit of discipline.
You're right, there's the element of luck; an element that can ALSO work against you. Sure, you can try to get to the items first BUT what if you don't? That's where the defensive aspect comes in.

That's an aspect that I urge all of you to actually learn...  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

I understand why people play without items, but it takes skill to use items to begin with. Just the fact that you have to get to them and knock your opponents away when they try to get items of their own involves a certain practice in reaction and option-weighing. Not to mention, there's the importance of Location Location Location when it comes to proximity mines and pokeballs.

But I don't pity those who suddenly find themselves helpless without items. Those people have been training themselves not to use items and when they're faced with items, they just can't handle it. They lack discipline in the art of items.

It takes much, much, much more practice to be good without items then with them. There's always the element of luck with items on where they spawn and whatnot.

I disagree, though. Training up your reaction time and focusing on the environment as well as your opponent takes quite a bit of discipline.
You're right, there's the element of luck; an element that can ALSO work against you. Sure, you can try to get to the items first BUT what if you don't? That's where the defensive aspect comes in.

That's an aspect that I urge all of you to actually learn...

I think you overestimate the difficulty of this "defensive aspect." So, what... all you need to work on is... catching certain items, avoiding others? Not that hard. I don't think it's really the items themselves people care about as much as the element of luck. The point is for it to be a match consisting of no variables, just the two opponents, leaving nothing to interfere but their own skill. Avoiding someones hammer or catching a bomb isn't that hard, but when a bomb spawns in front of you while you're attacking and you die, that takes away from the competition. With items, any scrub can beat anyone, and you don't want that in a tournament. Matches will become a race for the smashball/assist trophy/dragoon parts, or running all around the stage, trying to get away from the guy with the golden hammer/star power.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

I think you overestimate the difficulty of this "defensive aspect."

Judging by how much people complain about items, I say nay. Far too many players have ditched the idea of items entirely and just can't deal with them when they're used against them. Some defensive practice is in order, gentlemen.

Melomaniacal

The point is for it to be a match consisting of no variables, just the two opponents, leaving nothing to interfere but their own skill.

Really... well that just sounds like a load of fun *snore*

I agree that it sucks when a bob-omb appears right in front of you while attacking... it's happened to me. But that's the surprise in everything. Sometimes it's gonna happen, but it's also just as likely to happen to your opponents. Scrambling for items is part of the fun in the game. The kind of fighting and bickering that results from trying to get dragoon pieces and the smash ball is quite fun and actually involves skill. If it all came down to "luck", as you put it, then why is it that I have the uncanny ability to get the smash ball about 70% of the time it appears? I know exactly how to go about getting it: hitting it once, knocking away opponents, then going in to hit it more until it breaks. There's strategy to it and it requires a sharp eye, quick thinking, and the ability to scan the whole stage instantaneously for potential competition and obstacles to make it work. Otherwise, you might be setting up the smash ball for your opponent instead of yourself.

But really, the items and special stages are part of the reason why Smash Bros. stands out in the world of video games. If you want there to be no other variables in your fighting, then just play Street Fighter or something. This is Smash Bros, and Smash Bros. has items. Deal with it.

Melomaniacal

With items, any scrub can beat anyone

And with items on, any scrub can b***h and complain about how they were beaten by an item. Uh oh, incoming bob-omb.... should have caught it or avoided it, dumbass. It seems to me that you want to insult item-users because you are unable to effectively use items. I'm sure you've been in quite a few matches where you were thinking to yourself "I would have won if items were turned off". Instead of complaining about such a circumstance, then just practice harder and discipline yourself in the art of items. Then we won't have to even bother with this stupid discussion.

I prefer items, but my skill level is the same regardless of whether they're on or not. I've put in the time and effort required to do well under pretty much any circumstance. Try doing the same thing sometime.


EDIT: Come to think of it, I guess I didn't quite get the point of this thread. It seems that you all hate the idea of people winning matches by just waiting for items to spawn. I guess I need to clarify something.
In my mind, in order for you to be able to consider yourself "good" at this game, you have to be good with and without items. Being good only with items or only with items off leaves a huge crater in the assessment of personal skill at the game. What I'm trying to say is, all of you are assessing your skills only halfway.  

[Einherjar O D I N]

It's funny... The last guy who said he could beat me with items, got his a** kicked by my Ganondorf who went itemless the whole match.

Here's my point; Items take away from the balance of the game. One of the reasons why they're banned in tourney play. The capsules/crates and bob-ombs were a problem because of the random spawn points, ruining a match in an unfair manner. Granted, Brawl has added items to play, with them on or off (Zamus start of the match, @#$&#xin;g down b with Diddy, etc). It's a problem being worked on.


My two cents on the issue, you like items; fine. Like them. Don't expect us tourney players to though, and don't expect us to want to play with them. Practice to catch items is one thing, but playing with them on is something else.

I'm telling everyone right now; I'm not playing with anyone who has their items turned on. Please respect that, as I will respect that you want items. It'll just get nasty.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

I think you overestimate the difficulty of this "defensive aspect."

Judging by how much people complain about items, I say nay. Far too many players have ditched the idea of items entirely and just can't deal with them when they're used against them. Some defensive practice is in order, gentlemen.

Melomaniacal

The point is for it to be a match consisting of no variables, just the two opponents, leaving nothing to interfere but their own skill.

Really... well that just sounds like a load of fun *snore*

I agree that it sucks when a bob-omb appears right in front of you while attacking... it's happened to me. But that's the surprise in everything. Sometimes it's gonna happen, but it's also just as likely to happen to your opponents. Scrambling for items is part of the fun in the game. The kind of fighting and bickering that results from trying to get dragoon pieces and the smash ball is quite fun and actually involves skill. If it all came down to "luck", as you put it, then why is it that I have the uncanny ability to get the smash ball about 70% of the time it appears? I know exactly how to go about getting it: hitting it once, knocking away opponents, then going in to hit it more until it breaks. There's strategy to it and it requires a sharp eye, quick thinking, and the ability to scan the whole stage instantaneously for potential competition and obstacles to make it work. Otherwise, you might be setting up the smash ball for your opponent instead of yourself.

But really, the items and special stages are part of the reason why Smash Bros. stands out in the world of video games. If you want there to be no other variables in your fighting, then just play Street Fighter or something. This is Smash Bros, and Smash Bros. has items. Deal with it.

Melomaniacal

With items, any scrub can beat anyone

And with items on, any scrub can b***h and complain about how they were beaten by an item. Uh oh, incoming bob-omb.... should have caught it or avoided it, dumbass. It seems to me that you want to insult item-users because you are unable to effectively use items. I'm sure you've been in quite a few matches where you were thinking to yourself "I would have won if items were turned off". Instead of complaining about such a circumstance, then just practice harder and discipline yourself in the art of items. Then we won't have to even bother with this stupid discussion.

I prefer items, but my skill level is the same regardless of whether they're on or not. I've put in the time and effort required to do well under pretty much any circumstance. Try doing the same thing sometime.


EDIT: Come to think of it, I guess I didn't quite get the point of this thread. It seems that you all hate the idea of people winning matches by just waiting for items to spawn. I guess I need to clarify something.
In my mind, in order for you to be able to consider yourself "good" at this game, you have to be good with and without items. Being good only with items or only with items off leaves a huge crater in the assessment of personal skill at the game. What I'm trying to say is, all of you are assessing your skills only halfway.

Well, my point is still that being good with items is not that hard, and it's not worth the luck variable. Like the way you explained getting a Smash Ball... it's just as easy as that. Not a challenge. I think items are fine for casual play, but when you're playing for money, you should understand why people want them off. Yes, SSBB has items, but it also has the option to turn them all off, and that's there for a reason.
I'm not insulting item users, really, just people who rely on items to win.
Some people, like myself, have more fun without items. I can't stand the constant "art" of items, the extreme "strategy" of getting items, and the horribly difficult "technique" needed to avoid them. Yes, I'll play with items on when I'm with friends who like items, but I will always prefer them off.

Whatever, let's just drop it and agree to disagree. You prefer items on, I prefer them off.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

I think items are fine for casual play, but when you're playing for money, you should understand why people want them off.

If you're playing for money, then that's all the more reason to get rid of items.
For crying out loud, if they're banned in tournaments then fine. Don't use them in tournaments. Playing online is something else.... that's casual play, as you described it. Stop taking thing so seriously... it's a game. Games are meant to be fun and items are fun.

I suppose I can't convince you of the skill involved in items... you're dead set against the idea. However, there are some people who have this skill and would prefer to use it. Please respect that.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

I think items are fine for casual play, but when you're playing for money, you should understand why people want them off.

If you're playing for money, then that's all the more reason to get rid of items.
For crying out loud, if they're banned in tournaments then fine. Don't use them in tournaments. Playing online is something else.... that's casual play, as you described it. Stop taking thing so seriously... it's a game. Games are meant to be fun and items are fun.

I suppose I can't convince you of the skill involved in items... you're dead set against the idea. However, there are some people who have this skill and would prefer to use it. Please respect that.

"Items are fun" = opinion. I think they're fun occasionally, but for the most part I think they're just annoying.
I'm not saying that there's no skill in items, I just said that it's not that difficult to be good with them. Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.