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 Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:25 am
I got to thinking a few days ago (always a rather dangerous passtime) and it has occured to me that "Free Will" and "God's Perfect Plan" negate each other. Now before someone starts getting all angry and high and mighty on me just hear me out.....
If i remember the years of christian private schooling I endured in my younger years I'm pretty sure i can say that most TRADITIONAL Christians accept that humans have free will and that God has a perfect plan for everyone. Now, how can we have free will if there is a perfect plan in place? After all, a perfect plan would be one that never needed to be changed or or reworked. As such, we can only choose the path that would fit into God's perfect plan, right? I mean, how perfect is a plan that you have to keep redrafting just because some pesky human made a choice different from the one in the plan. So Every choice made would have to be the one you HAD to make, other wise the perfect plan crumbles. Now, I only recall ONE instance where freewill is given a SPECIFIC mention in the Bible. This is to describe the fundamental difference between humans and animals (basically, humans have the freewill to accept or deny God whereas animals have no choice but to love Him). The Bible never says we have freewill over anything else. So, logically it would follow that all those evil people would not really be evil, they were merely fulfilling this so called perfect plan and carrying out the will of God (weather they wanted to or not). Hitler: God's Will. Ghandi: God's will. Charles Manson: God's Will. Abortion Doctors: God's Will. Unless of course there is no "perfect plan", then that would mean that we DO have free will, in wich case there is no plan and the world is ruled by fate and our decisions.
Now, before you all begin commenting and whatnot, let me just remind you it is not my intent to insult anyone. I'm simply interested in your response. 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:06 pm
that's a good point. I would only add.. that the way I see it, the 'plan' need not even be 'perfect'. just the fact that there is a plan at all gives rise to the idea that our lives have some sort of destiny to them... and that idea completely contradicts the idea of free will period. and there are some christians who believe in pre-destiny. but if our lives are pre-destined to go a certain way.. if god created us to behave a certain way, do certain things, complete certain tasks, etc.. then how is our will really "free"? I too, am merely curious...
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:19 pm
Well, I wouldn't say there is a "perfect plan" as nothing
can be perfect because there is always an imperfection.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:40 pm
40oz. to freedom Well, I wouldn't say there is a "perfect plan" as nothing
can be perfect because there is always an imperfection. well since god is supposed to be infallible, his followers view him and all his works as perfect. which is why she kept saying 'perfect'. according to judeo-christian beliefs, adam and eve lived in a perfect state until they were bad and ate fruit that was forbidden them, and thus cast out of eden (The Fall) and since then our condition (the human condition) and the world we've had to make for ourselves has been fallible and imperfect. at least, that's according to their myth. but god himself and the rest of his creations (the natural world) remain in a perfect state (until we mess with it, as scientists do when they play 'god'). but I dont believe in any of that. smile
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:51 pm
thats true on many fronts
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:26 pm
quite the interesting topic i must say, however isnt the red thread in all religions that they are self contradicting? take foregiveness for example, if a god is forgiving then the concept of being punished for not believing is kinda meaningless, thus making hell a contradiction of heaven rather than an opposite of it right?
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:24 pm
Hikky-kun quite the interesting topic i must say, however isnt the red thread in all religions that they are self contradicting? take foregiveness for example, if a god is forgiving then the concept of being punished for not believing is kinda meaningless, thus making hell a contradiction of heaven rather than an opposite of it right? well here's how I see it. punishment doesnt automatically cancel out forgiveness. if you're a parent and your kid does something bad you're gonna punish your kid..to teach him a lesson. either ground him, take something that he likes away for a while, give him extra chores.. whatever.. but you wont stay mad at him forever, you'll forgive him eventually. this particular god (judeo-christian) is viewed upon as a parental figure. he is the "father", and people the "children". so in that light it's not really a contradiction of itself. however...punishments shouldnt be eternal and should be proportionate to the crime. the concept of hell as the christians would have it, and even the jewish version if I understand it rightly (eternal separation from god. no burning, no eternal torment) contradict forgiveness because they are eternal.
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:14 pm
You've got a point.
D: I had something more involving to say, but I forgot it.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:46 am
Infectious Bowel You've got a point. D: I had something more involving to say, but I forgot it. LOL I hate it when that happens! smile
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:42 pm
If any of you have read 1984, you might recognize the tactics being employed by most Christians as doublethink, or a process by which one brainwashes oneself into believing two entirely separate ideas even though they logically contradict each other. Many Christians will never once question the validity of either the Free Will or Will of God arguments, as they believe in both simultaneously. When presented with a question on either one of them, they will argue them both vehemently. It's a truly unfortunate situation, being morally and logically blinded by the very church you believe is going to open your eyes. I guess it's understandable, though, as God apparently punished Adam for eating of the tree of Knowledge (Genesis 2:17) Personally, I believe God created us with free will, and His will is Our will. He is not the Eternal Compass, but the Eternal Spectator. He, or whoever's up there, watches us. That's all.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:52 pm
ChaosAngel1421 If any of you have read 1984, you might recognize the tactics being employed by most Christians as doublethink, or a process by which one brainwashes oneself into believing two entirely separate ideas even though they logically contradict each other. Many Christians will never once question the validity of either the Free Will or Will of God arguments, as they believe in both simultaneously. When presented with a question on either one of them, they will argue them both vehemently. It's a truly unfortunate situation, being morally and logically blinded by the very church you believe is going to open your eyes. I guess it's understandable, though, as God apparently punished Adam for eating of the tree of Knowledge (Genesis 2:17) Personally, I believe God created us with free will, and His will is Our will. He is not the Eternal Compass, but the Eternal Spectator. He, or whoever's up there, watches us. That's all. In a less roundabout, less smart way, that was what I believed. XD
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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:32 am
ChaosAngel1421 If any of you have read 1984, you might recognize the tactics being employed by most Christians as doublethink, or a process by which one brainwashes oneself into believing two entirely separate ideas even though they logically contradict each other. Many Christians will never once question the validity of either the Free Will or Will of God arguments, as they believe in both simultaneously. When presented with a question on either one of them, they will argue them both vehemently. It's a truly unfortunate situation, being morally and logically blinded by the very church you believe is going to open your eyes. I guess it's understandable, though, as God apparently punished Adam for eating of the tree of Knowledge (Genesis 2:17) Personally, I believe God created us with free will, and His will is Our will. He is not the Eternal Compass, but the Eternal Spectator. He, or whoever's up there, watches us. That's all. his will is our will? I wonder, does that mean that it is his will that we invaded iraq? is it his will that the buddhist monks in Burma (I dont care, I still call it Burma) are being murdered by their government? because it seems to be mans will that these things happen. not *every* mans will mind you, for these things certainly are not MY will. but then, I dont believe in a god with a conscious or with a will at all... so maybe my opinion doesnt count as far as He is concerned. wink but yeah, I did see the movie (and had to read the book many many moons ago) and I do recognize what you're talking about there.
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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:06 pm
Infectious Bowel In a less roundabout, less smart way, that was what I believed. XD Just to let you know, roundabout doesn't necessarily mean smart. Personally, expressing oneself in a simple and concise manner is a better indicator of intelligence. rolleyes Anyhow, I know there's a fair number of Christians on this forum, and I'd very much like to hear their input on this topic. As the moderator, here's the general argument I've heard for the acceptance of both: As the Judeo-Christian deity is beyond comprehension and possibility (and possibly even existence in the classical sense), it IS possible for such a being to give us free will and maintain his own will at the same time. Similar to the question of whether he can create an unmovable stone, what we perceive as "impossible" through reason is actually possible for such a being. He CAN move the unmovable, exist outside of existence, and allow our free will to play out according to his master plan.
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:50 am
dboyzero Infectious Bowel In a less roundabout, less smart way, that was what I believed. XD Just to let you know, roundabout doesn't necessarily mean smart. Personally, expressing oneself in a simple and concise manner is a better indicator of intelligence. rolleyes Anyhow, I know there's a fair number of Christians on this forum, and I'd very much like to hear their input on this topic. As the moderator, here's the general argument I've heard for the acceptance of both: As the Judeo-Christian deity is beyond comprehension and possibility (and possibly even existence in the classical sense), it IS possible for such a being to give us free will and maintain his own will at the same time. Similar to the question of whether he can create an unmovable stone, what we perceive as "impossible" through reason is actually possible for such a being. He CAN move the unmovable, exist outside of existence, and allow our free will to play out according to his master plan. just outta curiosity, why does there have to be a master plan?
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:09 am
Simply put, there doesn't.
It's a common Judeo-Islamo-Christian belief that the Lord God Almighty, being a perfect entity who is both omniscient and omnipotent, would both have and execute a flawless, master plan for the universe. All things are the result of his master will, and unfold according to it, including all warfare, rape, judgment, and the devil's work as well.
But, there doesn't have to be a master plan. Assuming such a being exists, it's perfectly feasible and just as likely that he (or she, or it, or something completely beyond our comprehension) is content to just sit back and let things happen as they will.
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