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 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:42 pm
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Here is my Fiance's response. He thanked you for having the confidence to voice your concerns, but said he felt like getting into a debate of logic may just lead to angry feelings, and he doesn't want you to feel frustrated (especially after I told him how kind you were about disagreeing) but here is what he emailed me if you are at all interested:
Quote: you have to understand first that the Gospel is true and if you dont then these other things wont make sense. like learning algebra before calculus. they may not even make sense if you do believe but it all comes back to Faith. isaiah 55 8-9 mosiah 4:9 hebrews 11... you can find things that make it seem right and some that make it seem wrong. i personally had never heard of this smuggled gun, but now that i have heard it from this guy. I believe that it could have happened. but it doesnt make me question my testimony at all. i have prayed to God to ask if this church and gospel are true and i received an answer that YES they are true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. He was also a man. Not a perfect man. but he was God's chosen prophet like Moses Abraham and others. all prophets, all imperfect men. So we can discuss and argue "till your eyes bleed" but ask God because He is the only one who can give us the correct answers.
So there is the testimony of a mormon. I understand why you think the book of mormon is racist, but I go back again to my examples from the bible to explain why I don't think something that looks terrible is grounds to discredit the incredible amount of good that can be found in the book. I do think that there are mormons out there that will blindly deny everything that happened though. As for Joe Smith, I called Erik the other day and we talked about him a little bit. Apparently this guy had been through a lot, and did have his own issues. He mentioned one time that Joe wanted to lend some manuscript to another guy who was helping him translate it, and God said no. Joe kept pestering God cuz he wanted him to say yes, till god said "fine" and the manuscript got lost. Then Joe wanted to know when the second coming was. He kept badgering God to know till God said it would be on his 85th birthday (or whenever it was) but Joe never lived to have an 85th birthday. Some may say why would god let him lend out themanuscript after being badgered if he knew itd get lost, and why would he tell Joe Christ would come for his 85th bday when he knew he'd never live to have one? That part depends on whatever side you want to believe.
He also mentioned that the writers of the book of mormon said that they werent really good writers (like moses wasnt a good speaker) and that they were worried we'd judge them for anything they worded awkwardly. Joe smith, they believe, just translated it. Joe smith obviously had a lot of issues. But so does everyone. Thank goodness mormons dont worship the guy. He did do a lot of good too though.
Anyways, If you respond to the "details" I give you I dont know that I could give you a very good response since i'm mostly regurgitating what he said, and he said he didn't want to debate you sad so I apologize for that. I hope my pathetic efforts may have given you at least an insight into why the mormons think as they do though smile All of my inlaws are mormons and I love them all n_n so though there are things I dont understand in the religion, I think a lot of teachings are very sweet, like families being sealed, babies not going to hell for not being baptized, teachings about the atonement of Jesus Christ etc.
Thank you again for being so kind and not overwhelming me with a lot of attacks. I really dont know a whole lot so I appreciate you having mercy on me :p
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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:14 am
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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:45 pm
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thetikignat hozergnat And thank you for being so kind to me about all of this smile ! It's nice to talk to mature/ cool headed anti mormons. It means a lot to me that you're being so nice about your disagreements since I have so many people I love who are Mormons.
You're welcome, and thanks on your part too. I can only imagine it must be a little frustrating to be explaining Mormonism's tenets to people who disagree with the majority of their beliefs, so it helps that you are also level-headed about all of this. smile
I'll try to answer as rationally as I can, so again please be lenient if I come off as too brash or rude.
thetikignat hozergnat IOne thing i've always had a problem with as a christian (though I accept it as something I probably just don't know ALL of the facts about- so it doesnt drive me to disown the bible) is how God commanded the children of isreal to kill ALL of the previous inhabitants of the cities they were to inhabit (probably because of their wickedness) but this included ALL...men, women, children, pregnant women, and even animals in some cases..). Now in this case i'm sure there were innocent people. I consider babies as innocent. Why did they have to die? I don't know. But later on we see the children of isreal being blockheads and so God had to "clear them out" so to say- but when THEY were bad, why didn't THEY all get killed? only some were killed, most were just scattered around though. Was he playing favorites with his "chosen people"? Did he do that with noah too? I just watched the Bible video (assuming its accurate. If it isn't,disregard this comment ;p ) and it broke my heart to see the part where the parents were desperately holding their poor children above the water and towards the ark. Why Did God only save noas family and leave the rest to die? were even the new born babies evil? I don't believe babies are born evil. So some of Noahs descendants even had issues. So what, do you have to be related to a prophet? Do you have to be a favorite to get spared? it seems odd. But I accept it because I have read the bible, prayed about it, and have felt comfort from its passages many times. I feel like it is a good book, despite what I don't understand. I don't defend racism, but perhaps mormons feel the same.
I don't know if this will be a satisfactory explanation or not, but here goes:
To say that babies and little children are innocent and sinless is not correct. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." David, one of the most righteous men who ever lived on Earth, realized that even when he was unaware of what he was or what he was doing, he was already a sinner. We inherit our sinful nature from our ancestors up to Adam; therefore, all humanity is naturally inclined to sin. Thus, babies and the unborn cannot be considered innocent because they too have the capacity for sin, no matter how unaware they are of their capability to go against God.
That also goes for "innocent" individuals in the cities God had the Israelites destroy. No one is truly innocent because of our inherently sinful nature and because of the sins we commit ourselves daily--everyone deserves punishment. This does include children and pregnant women--God would not be a fair judge if He did not judge them too. Now it goes without saying that God doesn't like to have to judge, but when it comes to why He also had them killed, I wouldn't know exactly. I get the feeling, though, that if a certain group of humans was left alive, they would find a way to fall into the same sins as their predecessors and still would refuse to acknowledge God.
That being said, God is also a fair judge. Only He knows if the children are aware of what is sin and what isn't. Just because they have a sin nature doesn't mean God won't absolve them no matter what--God would have taken at least some of the unborn or "unaware" (for lack of a better term) to Heaven because they did not know enough to actually commit sin, and because He is as merciful as He is just (perhaps more so for the former).
As for Israel... well, I'm not extremely well-versed with the reasons why Israel received much fewer casualties, but God promised Abraham that his people would live on (which would not happen if He wiped them all out), and God was also acutely aware that there were many people who followed Him in Israel. In all of the cities God brought judgment upon, very few professed faith in God. This would have been quite different in Israel.
Like I said, I'm not sure if that's a satisfactory explanation for you, so if you need more clarification I'll be happy to try and make more sense XP
thetikignat hozergnat They don't blindly kick against logical arguments just for the sake of being brainwashed and stubborn, but maybe they have felt so much good from the book of mormon that they feel that there must be an explanation for it that they dont know yet. Like we do and the bible- or like we feel about the catholic church (the few bad leaders not giving proof that all the leaders/ church are bad). I dont think that just because a leader has a fault means that God didnt lead the church (like the famous examples of his hand picked apostles- peter and thomas. I'm sure you know their story)
Is it really possible to justify racism with good feelings?
thetikignat hozergnat Though some catholic teachings bother me, I defend some branches of it for this reason. I dont know about some of the "questionable motives" that some point out, but I have seen the good that the teachings do in general. Like loving your neighbor. I feel like catholics for the most part have been a branch of christianity less known for preaching "hateful" things at their pulpit. It's a beautiful concept. smile
I'm curious: can you give me examples of what they preach that you find beautiful and examples of what you consider "hateful things"?
thetikignat hozergnat You know, I'm not qualified to address Joe Smith's specific history on polygamy but I have studied up on it a bit on my own. Mostly accounts from the bible, and from actually a mormon named emeline b. wells. It's amazing. Anyways, I can give you my personal opinions on that if its polygamy that you view as horrible- but i'm not sure if you have a problem with polygamy or JUST the way Joe Smith practiced it. Let me know smile
I'd like to see your personal opinions on both topics, even if they're just theories. |
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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:26 pm
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Quote: I don't know if this will be a satisfactory explanation or not, but here goes: To say that babies and little children are innocent and sinless is not correct. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." David, one of the most righteous men who ever lived on Earth, realized that even when he was unaware of what he was or what he was doing, he was already a sinner. We inherit our sinful nature from our ancestors up to Adam; therefore, all humanity is naturally inclined to sin. Thus, babies and the unborn cannot be considered innocent because they too have the capacity for sin, no matter how unaware they are of their capability to go against God.
Quote: That also goes for "innocent" individuals in the cities God had the Israelites destroy. No one is truly innocent because of our inherently sinful nature and because of the sins we commit ourselves daily--everyone deserves punishment. This does include children and pregnant women--God would not be a fair judge if He did not judge them too. Now it goes without saying that God doesn't like to have to judge, but when it comes to why He also had them killed, I wouldn't know exactly. I get the feeling, though, that if a certain group of humans was left alive, they would find a way to fall into the same sins as their predecessors and still would refuse to acknowledge God. That being said, God is also a fair judge. Only He knows if the children are aware of what is sin and what isn't. Just because they have a sin nature doesn't mean God won't absolve them no matter what--God would have taken at least some of the unborn or "unaware" (for lack of a better term) to Heaven because they did not know enough to actually commit sin, and because He is as merciful as He is just (perhaps more so for the former).
I always thought "God knew something i'm not aware of" or "He knew what he was doing..and I trust him no matter what it can look like" but your answer does make sense smile
Quote: Is it really possible to justify racism with good feelings?
Racist feelings, no. What I mean to say is that just because we read something that sounds bad to us may not mean that it was written with bad feelings.more like we just interpret it as bad. That's like somebody saying "Can God really justify murder?" its like if you say it that way, it sounds bad, but the way you explained it is a different way to view him sanctioning taking of somebodies life. which is murder. but without the horrible connotations cuz we trust that God is just and knows whats going on. We trust that God inspired the bible even if some parts seem bad to some people, there is a reason. I think that its fair to say that the mormons view the book of mormon the same way if that makes sense. I dont think they defend racism. I think they defend what I did with the book of mormon "it may sound bd to you, but we believe this book was inspired, so if it sounds bad, its cuz we dont fully grasp the reasons and concepts" but they dont defend racism. Also, if i remember right the book of mormon was written by a lot of crusy war veterans. Most crusty old war vetran grandpas really have a cruel way of wording things, even if they are nice people. At the end of the book of mormon erik says there is a part that one of the prophets wrote that says essenctially "I suck at writing. If something sounds bad, its cuz i suck at writing. Don't throw away the value of this book just because I may have said something that sounded horrible" so that could be another thing maybe? anyways, I think that they dont defend racism, they just defend that there is a reason to explain it besideds it "being cold and racist". if that makes sense.
I'm curious: can you give me examples of what they preach that you find beautiful and examples of what you consider "hateful things"?
Well, the depth and meaning of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Families can be together forever. Repentence (part of what they call "the gospel of jesus christ" ), the plan of salvation, The nature of God and Christ (but this part I don't know if its what all christians teach or just what they teach..i dont have a lot of knowledge of what churches teach doctrine wise outside of catholics and mormons- i probably know more of the mormon beliefs since I hang around so many) There are probably more but i dont remember :s
Quote: I'd like to see your personal opinions on both topics, even if they're just theories.
If you get a chance, read/listen to the biography of emeline b wells. I'll try to sum up her history:
SO she lived around the time of joe smith I think..or the guy after joe smith (the mormons have prophet after prophet- i dont think they have more than one at a time like they do in the bible). anyways, she had a guy she loved and married who went to sea but she never saw him again (turns out her mother in law was hiding all of his letters to her) so later she finds out he thought SHE forgot about HIM since he never got her letters either. So she was all sad. then she got mixed up with the mormons. she hated it at first (understandably..id have a hard time doing that too...)
So the mormons had some super hike across the USA to utah (i dont remember the details as to why) and she went with them- the dude she was married to died along the way so she was released from that. So she was now on the east coast and after living both a polygamous marriage and a non polygamous marriage, she chose to ASK a guy who was a polygamist take her as a wife. he didnt really want to at first but later it was okayed by the church and she was sad cuz he was always nice to her but she didnt feel like he loved her. Later on though it works out and they are happy together.
I'm skipping a lot though. Anyways, she was supported by her polygamist husbands to participate in the womens rights movements and to get her degree. She points out that at that time, it was harder for women to get recognized for work and what not but that with more than one "mom" in the house, they could take turns staying with the kids while one of them went to study or work. and it woulda been hard otherwise. She said she felt like she learned to overcome jelousy and had a big testimony after that. Of course though there were idiots who abused it :/
Anyways, THere are cases in the bible with it too. I think its one of those things that God knows who can grow from it and at what time and with who if they really try. I'm really not doing her biography justice. you'd have to read it or listen to it.
I'm sorry I have a headache, so i'll have to continue this later :s |
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Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:07 pm
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thetikignat hozergnat I actually never thought about that scripture before. I understand why you believe as you do now smile I guess I am of the opinion that the atonement of christ atoned for anything like that in people who didnt have a real knowledge of what they did (like babies). So like, i think that because of the atonement, babies can die without baptism (if they're babies babies) and not go to hell/limbo cuz christ will make up anything they lack in their case.
I like to simplify it by saying God is merciful and understanding. He is aware of what is and isn't true and uses His omniscience to judge.
thetikignat hozergnat I always thought "God knew something i'm not aware of" or "He knew what he was doing..and I trust him no matter what it can look like" but your answer does make sense smile
Glad to hear smile
thetikignat hozergnat Racist feelings, no. What I mean to say is that just because we read something that sounds bad to us may not mean that it was written with bad feelings.more like we just interpret it as bad. That's like somebody saying "Can God really justify murder?" its like if you say it that way, it sounds bad, but the way you explained it is a different way to view him sanctioning taking of somebodies life. which is murder. but without the horrible connotations cuz we trust that God is just and knows whats going on. We trust that God inspired the bible even if some parts seem bad to some people, there is a reason. I think that its fair to say that the mormons view the book of mormon the same way if that makes sense. I dont think they defend racism. I think they defend what I did with the book of mormon "it may sound bd to you, but we believe this book was inspired, so if it sounds bad, its cuz we dont fully grasp the reasons and concepts" but they dont defend racism. Also, if i remember right the book of mormon was written by a lot of crusy war veterans. Most crusty old war vetran grandpas really have a cruel way of wording things, even if they are nice people. At the end of the book of mormon erik says there is a part that one of the prophets wrote that says essenctially "I suck at writing. If something sounds bad, its cuz i suck at writing. Don't throw away the value of this book just because I may have said something that sounded horrible" so that could be another thing maybe? anyways, I think that they dont defend racism, they just defend that there is a reason to explain it besideds it "being cold and racist". if that makes sense.
Considering the definition of murder, I wouldn't say "Can God really justify murder?" is a question that proves your point very well. "Taking someone's life" isn't the same thing as "murder" depending on who took it.
God, as our Creator, reserves the right to create and end life whenever He chooses. If we can trust God to never do wrong (which we can), then God cannot commit murder. When a person commits a murder, they are taking someone's life but are not justified in doing so, and usually with extreme hatred for the other individual. It is okay to let God decide when to stop a person from living because He is just and righteous and has the ability to punish people whenever and however He desires––sometimes using humans accomplish that end. It isn't justifiable for humans to commit murder because there are never good reasons why it's alright for us to take lives on our own volition. In addition, by murdering one of God's creations, a person is essentially saying that they are better fit to judge than God; that the victim wasn't deserving of God's love; and that, in the murderer's twisted, sinful, and often always wrong view, the victim didn't deserve life.
Moving back to the original topic, it is not wrong to say that God did include some passages in the Bible that we don't honestly have answers for. It's true that we place faith in God that He will make sense of the controversial passage or topic in due time. I just have difficulty seeing how Mormons plan to explain it. From what I gather the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin due to their disobedience. So why was that punishment not distributed to other groups of people if no individual is perfect? Why just the Lamanites?
thetikignat hozergnat Well, the depth and meaning of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Families can be together forever. Repentence (part of what they call "the gospel of jesus christ" ), the plan of salvation, The nature of God and Christ (but this part I don't know if its what all christians teach or just what they teach..i dont have a lot of knowledge of what churches teach doctrine wise outside of catholics and mormons- i probably know more of the mormon beliefs since I hang around so many) There are probably more but i dont remember :s
Everything except the idea that families can be together forever is part of Christian doctrine. Jesus never advocated that idea; in fact, in one of His sermons, He claimed that belief in Him could even split families apart because not everyone wanted to accept Him.
thetikignat hozergnat If you get a chance, read/listen to the biography of emeline b wells. I'll try to sum up her history: SO she lived around the time of joe smith I think..or the guy after joe smith (the mormons have prophet after prophet- i dont think they have more than one at a time like they do in the bible). anyways, she had a guy she loved and married who went to sea but she never saw him again (turns out her mother in law was hiding all of his letters to her) so later she finds out he thought SHE forgot about HIM since he never got her letters either. So she was all sad. then she got mixed up with the mormons. she hated it at first (understandably..id have a hard time doing that too...) So the mormons had some super hike across the USA to utah (i dont remember the details as to why) and she went with them- the dude she was married to died along the way so she was released from that. So she was now on the east coast and after living both a polygamous marriage and a non polygamous marriage, she chose to ASK a guy who was a polygamist take her as a wife. he didnt really want to at first but later it was okayed by the church and she was sad cuz he was always nice to her but she didnt feel like he loved her. Later on though it works out and they are happy together. I'm skipping a lot though. Anyways, she was supported by her polygamist husbands to participate in the womens rights movements and to get her degree. She points out that at that time, it was harder for women to get recognized for work and what not but that with more than one "mom" in the house, they could take turns staying with the kids while one of them went to study or work. and it woulda been hard otherwise. She said she felt like she learned to overcome jelousy and had a big testimony after that. Of course though there were idiots who abused it :/ Anyways, THere are cases in the bible with it too. I think its one of those things that God knows who can grow from it and at what time and with who if they really try. I'm really not doing her biography justice. you'd have to read it or listen to it. I'm sorry I have a headache, so i'll have to continue this later :s
I don't think that you did injustice to Emeline's story, but the thing is that God intended marriage to be between one man and one woman only. Just because there are cases of it in the Bible doesn't mean He suddenly began to advocate marriage between one man and multiple women or vice versa––besides, it's contradictory to God being an everlasting (read: never-changing) God. There are elements of the Bible that reveal the cultural contexts of the occurrences in the Bible, and polygamy happens to be one of them.
Although the culture of the time did sometimes make polygamy an option (you could see reasons why God "allowed" it here), polygamy is never presented in a good light in the Bible. Jacob's marriage to Rachel and Leah resulted in strife between the two sisters (and Rachel's desire to do better than her sister and provide more children for Jacob resulted in her death). Solomon had 700 wives out of political arrangements––how could you keep up with that many people, let alone remember who they were?
Even if there are benefits to polygamy, is it actually okay considering that it violates the basic law God instituted for marriage? |
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Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:59 pm
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Ikatsui-Karite Manticore thetikignat hozergnat I actually never thought about that scripture before. I understand why you believe as you do now smile I guess I am of the opinion that the atonement of christ atoned for anything like that in people who didnt have a real knowledge of what they did (like babies). So like, i think that because of the atonement, babies can die without baptism (if they're babies babies) and not go to hell/limbo cuz christ will make up anything they lack in their case. I like to simplify it by saying God is merciful and understanding. He is aware of what is and isn't true and uses His omniscience to judge. thetikignat hozergnat I always thought "God knew something i'm not aware of" or "He knew what he was doing..and I trust him no matter what it can look like" but your answer does make sense smile Glad to hear smile thetikignat hozergnat Racist feelings, no. What I mean to say is that just because we read something that sounds bad to us may not mean that it was written with bad feelings.more like we just interpret it as bad. That's like somebody saying "Can God really justify murder?" its like if you say it that way, it sounds bad, but the way you explained it is a different way to view him sanctioning taking of somebodies life. which is murder. but without the horrible connotations cuz we trust that God is just and knows whats going on. We trust that God inspired the bible even if some parts seem bad to some people, there is a reason. I think that its fair to say that the mormons view the book of mormon the same way if that makes sense. I dont think they defend racism. I think they defend what I did with the book of mormon "it may sound bd to you, but we believe this book was inspired, so if it sounds bad, its cuz we dont fully grasp the reasons and concepts" but they dont defend racism. Also, if i remember right the book of mormon was written by a lot of crusy war veterans. Most crusty old war vetran grandpas really have a cruel way of wording things, even if they are nice people. At the end of the book of mormon erik says there is a part that one of the prophets wrote that says essenctially "I suck at writing. If something sounds bad, its cuz i suck at writing. Don't throw away the value of this book just because I may have said something that sounded horrible" so that could be another thing maybe? anyways, I think that they dont defend racism, they just defend that there is a reason to explain it besideds it "being cold and racist". if that makes sense. Considering the definition of murder, I wouldn't say "Can God really justify murder?" is a question that proves your point very well. "Taking someone's life" isn't the same thing as "murder" depending on who took it. God, as our Creator, reserves the right to create and end life whenever He chooses. If we can trust God to never do wrong (which we can), then God cannot commit murder. When a person commits a murder, they are taking someone's life but are not justified in doing so, and usually with extreme hatred for the other individual. It is okay to let God decide when to stop a person from living because He is just and righteous and has the ability to punish people whenever and however He desires––sometimes using humans accomplish that end. It isn't justifiable for humans to commit murder because there are never good reasons why it's alright for us to take lives on our own volition. In addition, by murdering one of God's creations, a person is essentially saying that they are better fit to judge than God; that the victim wasn't deserving of God's love; and that, in the murderer's twisted, sinful, and often always wrong view, the victim didn't deserve life. Moving back to the original topic, it is not wrong to say that God did include some passages in the Bible that we don't honestly have answers for. It's true that we place faith in God that He will make sense of the controversial passage or topic in due time. I just have difficulty seeing how Mormons plan to explain it. From what I gather the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin due to their disobedience. So why was that punishment not distributed to other groups of people if no individual is perfect? Why just the Lamanites? thetikignat hozergnat Well, the depth and meaning of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Families can be together forever. Repentence (part of what they call "the gospel of jesus christ" ), the plan of salvation, The nature of God and Christ (but this part I don't know if its what all christians teach or just what they teach..i dont have a lot of knowledge of what churches teach doctrine wise outside of catholics and mormons- i probably know more of the mormon beliefs since I hang around so many) There are probably more but i dont remember :s Everything except the idea that families can be together forever is part of Christian doctrine. Jesus never advocated that idea; in fact, in one of His sermons, He claimed that belief in Him could even split families apart because not everyone wanted to accept Him. thetikignat hozergnat If you get a chance, read/listen to the biography of emeline b wells. I'll try to sum up her history: SO she lived around the time of joe smith I think..or the guy after joe smith (the mormons have prophet after prophet- i dont think they have more than one at a time like they do in the bible). anyways, she had a guy she loved and married who went to sea but she never saw him again (turns out her mother in law was hiding all of his letters to her) so later she finds out he thought SHE forgot about HIM since he never got her letters either. So she was all sad. then she got mixed up with the mormons. she hated it at first (understandably..id have a hard time doing that too...) So the mormons had some super hike across the USA to utah (i dont remember the details as to why) and she went with them- the dude she was married to died along the way so she was released from that. So she was now on the east coast and after living both a polygamous marriage and a non polygamous marriage, she chose to ASK a guy who was a polygamist take her as a wife. he didnt really want to at first but later it was okayed by the church and she was sad cuz he was always nice to her but she didnt feel like he loved her. Later on though it works out and they are happy together. I'm skipping a lot though. Anyways, she was supported by her polygamist husbands to participate in the womens rights movements and to get her degree. She points out that at that time, it was harder for women to get recognized for work and what not but that with more than one "mom" in the house, they could take turns staying with the kids while one of them went to study or work. and it woulda been hard otherwise. She said she felt like she learned to overcome jelousy and had a big testimony after that. Of course though there were idiots who abused it :/ Anyways, THere are cases in the bible with it too. I think its one of those things that God knows who can grow from it and at what time and with who if they really try. I'm really not doing her biography justice. you'd have to read it or listen to it. I'm sorry I have a headache, so i'll have to continue this later :s I don't think that you did injustice to Emeline's story, but the thing is that God intended marriage to be between one man and one woman only. Just because there are cases of it in the Bible doesn't mean He suddenly began to advocate marriage between one man and multiple women or vice versa––besides, it's contradictory to God being an everlasting (read: never-changing) God. There are elements of the Bible that reveal the cultural contexts of the occurrences in the Bible, and polygamy happens to be one of them. Although the culture of the time did sometimes make polygamy an option ( you could see reasons why God "allowed" it here), polygamy is never presented in a good light in the Bible. Jacob's marriage to Rachel and Leah resulted in strife between the two sisters (and Rachel's desire to do better than her sister and provide more children for Jacob resulted in her death). Solomon had 700 wives out of political arrangements––how could you keep up with that many people, let alone remember who they were? Even if there are benefits to polygamy, is it actually okay considering that it violates the basic law God instituted for marriage?
I don't mean to say that God is a Murderer. Just pointing out that some people may argue that murder is murder the way some people look at the book of mormon and sya "how could this be inspired by god? racism is racism." cuz they may look at it the way you look at "murder". Its not murder because murder comes with negative connotations. Yes he did use men to bring about the deaths of many, but its different for us because we believe that he did so with good reason, even if we may not be 100% sure exactly WHAT his reasons were. I don't think us christians should be forced to "accept it for what it is" we accept that it was sad, and dont have to "accept" that it was evil like some people see it. What I mean to say is that maybe mormons arent turning a blind and "denying" eye to what we may view as racist- just that maybe they view it the same way we view the deaths in the bible, if that makes sense. They believe it is inspired of god like we believe the bible is inspired of God. because we have faith in God, and that he inspired the bible, we have faith that the killings happened for a good and righteous reason, like you said. Maybe they believe the same thing- that he used that curse at that time for a good reason, because they trust him. like we trust him.
As for polygamy, I feel like the prophets of that time were not perfect in living it (like racheal and leah) (especially abraham and his wife +her handmaid).But I think God had a plan for their children. Each of Abrahams wives brought fourth children imperitive to Gods plan. Could God have brought about the plan without polygamy? probably. He can do a lot of things without using the methods that he chose. I think its one of those things though that you really have to be careful about though. I dont think solomon had the sanction of God in all of his marriages- especially since they were idolators. I think taking a second wife/looking on a nother woman without Gods sanction is sick and adulterous- like David and Bathsheeba (I know that's an extreme example since she was already married and he commited murder :p ) I personally think that him being the same god is just that: he is at justice to say when something can be done and when it cannot- like taking of a persons life. Its taught that its bad, but when commanded by him than it is okay. I view polygamy in the same way. I feel like it was a good way to teach humility, obedience and faith. I dont think it was required for very long though, unless the bible just doesnt mention it much smile Obviously I would have a hard time with the idea now though if I was asked to do it :s I'm more interested in discussing polygamy in and of itself though, not really how the mormons practiced it. I wouldnt know how to explain their side anyways :p
Im very interested in speaking to you about families being eternal. That is actually a view I agree with according to mormon teachings so I'd probably defend that one "as a mormon" instead of at a "kinda" neutral view. Would that be more appropriate to open up as a new thread though? Or would that one be good just to keep here? smile We may get more views if we make a new thread n_n You don't have to be so careful with my feelings on that topic though since they are my views. It doesnt hurt me as badly if you do debate style posts if its just my beliefs i'm talking about smile |
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:14 pm
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Sorry for taking so long to reply, I was enjoying the beginning of my summer break. razz So without further ado:
thetikignat hozergnat I don't mean to say that God is a Murderer. Just pointing out that some people may argue that murder is murder the way some people look at the book of mormon and sya "how could this be inspired by god? racism is racism." cuz they may look at it the way you look at "murder". Its not murder because murder comes with negative connotations. Yes he did use men to bring about the deaths of many, but its different for us because we believe that he did so with good reason, even if we may not be 100% sure exactly WHAT his reasons were. I don't think us christians should be forced to "accept it for what it is" we accept that it was sad, and dont have to "accept" that it was evil like some people see it. What I mean to say is that maybe mormons arent turning a blind and "denying" eye to what we may view as racist- just that maybe they view it the same way we view the deaths in the bible, if that makes sense. They believe it is inspired of god like we believe the bible is inspired of God. because we have faith in God, and that he inspired the bible, we have faith that the killings happened for a good and righteous reason, like you said. Maybe they believe the same thing- that he used that curse at that time for a good reason, because they trust him. like we trust him.
Sorry, I have a habit of misinterpreting what people are saying at times >_< I'll try not to do that when I give my answer.
I feel the difficulty with explaining the concept of God being racist in the Mormon scriptures stems from the fact that using logic, we can deduce that God is right to take lives. We do not accept the misconception that God is committing murder because it logically doesn't make any sense––if God is everything good and cannot sin, and murder is sin, then how can God commit murder? On the other hand, I do not see a logical basis for God being racist in the Mormon scriptures.
Don't get me wrong, if there is a logically sound explanation for the Lamanites being forced to have dark skin, I will accept it. The reason I am so vehemently opposed to it, however, is that (and I hope you don't find this harsh) I don't find a logical foundation for Mormonism. From what I have gathered from teachers, there are many aspects of Mormonism that are illogical––for instance, none of the prophecies Joseph Smith came to pass, and the Mormons only claim the Bible is right so far as it has been translated (which is a fallacious idea––how do they know which parts of the Bible aren't wrong and why would they want to believe something that has errors in it anyways?). For me, that makes me question the logicality behind Mormon concepts, one of them being the idea that God is racist. If the Mormon faith does not have a logical foundation, how can we know for sure that God was being fair when He handed the Lamanites their punishment?
Again, I'm really sorry if I come off as rude, angry, or harsh.
thetikignat hozergnat As for polygamy, I feel like the prophets of that time were not perfect in living it (like racheal and leah) (especially abraham and his wife +her handmaid).But I think God had a plan for their children. Each of Abrahams wives brought fourth children imperitive to Gods plan. Could God have brought about the plan without polygamy? probably. He can do a lot of things without using the methods that he chose.
I'll explain more about my views on polygamy further down the post, but I'll address this point real quick. The problem with adopting that view is that God never intended for Ishmael to be part of His plan. I don't exactly know how God used the children born from Abraham's wife Keturah and her concubines, but I do seem to recall that the Ishmaelites later caused strife for the Israelites. In addition, Ishmael and his mother were forced into the desert wilderness because of Sarah's hastiness.
thetikignat hozergnat I think its one of those things though that you really have to be careful about though. I dont think solomon had the sanction of God in all of his marriages- especially since they were idolators. I think taking a second wife/looking on a nother woman without Gods sanction is sick and adulterous- like David and Bathsheeba (I know that's an extreme example since she was already married and he commited murder :p ) I personally think that him being the same god is just that: he is at justice to say when something can be done and when it cannot- like taking of a persons life. Its taught that its bad, but when commanded by him than it is okay. I view polygamy in the same way. I feel like it was a good way to teach humility, obedience and faith. I dont think it was required for very long though, unless the bible just doesnt mention it much smile Obviously I would have a hard time with the idea now though if I was asked to do it :s I'm more interested in discussing polygamy in and of itself though, not really how the mormons practiced it. I wouldnt know how to explain their side anyways :p
I agree that God is at justice to say what can and cannot be done and when exactly the rules change, but there are some rules God never changes because they're contrary to His nature.
I don't believe that God sanctioned any of the polygamous marriages that occurred in the Bible––whether it be on a massive scale, such as Solomon's many marriages, or whether it be on a smaller scale, such as Jacob marrying Rachel and Leah at the same time. I don't believe God ever ordered any polygamous marriages, and you can certainly see why when you examine the results. Polygamy created conflict between the individuals involved; you could say that Rachel's jealousy at her sister's many offspring eventually led to her death. And if two wives competing for their shared husband's attention wasn't already a volatile situation, how would the women who married David (who, if I recall correctly, had at least 4) or Solomon (who had hundreds) have acted knowing that there were several (or in Solomon's case, countless) other women in their husband's lives?
It is natural for a husband and wife to be jealous for one another, just as Christ is jealous for us, His bride. It was how God designed marriage to begin with––two individuals, one male and one female, coming together to be one flesh. Again, this is easy to witness by the... fulfillment (for lack of a much better term) our spouses provide us with. Once we are married, our spouses grant us physical, spiritual, and psychological satisfaction and support. This balance is only achieved because it is the way God intended marriage to be––we don't get that "fulfillment" if there are more people involved in a marriage, no matter how perfect they are, because we weren't made to be married to several other men or women.
I guess the bottom line is that if God wanted us to be involved in polygamy, He would have designed us in a way that promotes it. The fact that the Bible never presents polygamy in a good light is evidence that polygamy was never His intention.
thetikignat hozergnat Im very interested in speaking to you about families being eternal. That is actually a view I agree with according to mormon teachings so I'd probably defend that one "as a mormon" instead of at a "kinda" neutral view. Would that be more appropriate to open up as a new thread though? Or would that one be good just to keep here? smile We may get more views if we make a new thread n_n You don't have to be so careful with my feelings on that topic though since they are my views. It doesnt hurt me as badly if you do debate style posts if its just my beliefs i'm talking about smile
I'd definitely be willing to share my views on the eternal families concept. I suppose to avoid cluttering this thread, we could open up another, or discuss the topic via private message. It's up to you, I really don't have a preference razz
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