My Alternative Crafting System

[Avatar129142137]

Quote:

Will properly update this later

I would appreciate opinions on the realistic-hourly idea.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/communityContent/houseRules/eyolfTheWildCommonersNEWCRAFTINGHOUSERULES

So yeah, just click the link, and no need to sign into anything, just read.  

[Arc Vembris]

Good job, you have successfully made the crafting rules far more complicated than they were before.

To what end have you attempted this?  

[Avatar129142137]

Well, I was informed by a source that I trust that in a medieval era.

To make a full suit of plate mail armor from scratch, assuming all materials, tools were at hand and such.

That you had some assistants, and ya knew what you were doing.

It would take approximately 7 days, a full week, working upwards to like 14 hours a day of progress.

I trust the source, as he's into these sorts of things, but I shall attempt to validate it myself later just for extra confirmation. Though once again, I already trust the source.

Now compare that to the current D&D system where a 20x20 working 8 hours of progress a day, takes 288 days to make a Full suit of plate mail.



The attempt is to make a more realistic system, and I completely removed the mastery value.

And am now moving on to scrap those modifications and replace the system entirely with a Time System.


Something like this.

Quote:

Core System

+40 to Craft Check, Taking 10.
50 x 20 (DC for Alchemist Fire)
1000 Sp (Cost for Alchemist Fire = 200 Sp)

5 Alchemist Fires Created Weekly.
OR
1000 / 7 = 143 sp per 8 hours progress.
143 / 8 = 17.875 x 12 = 214.5 Sp

1 Alchemist Fire Every 12 hours progress.

Realistic Time System.
+10 to Craft Check, Taking 10.
20 hits 20.
30 minutes to prepare ingredients for mass production.
10 minutes to make an Alchemist Fire.

60 x 12 = 720 minutes. / 10 = 69 Alchemists Fire's made in 12 hours.

 

[Arc Vembris]

So the end result is that you can crank out full-plate faster. Certainly not a game-breaking aspect of the game, it does make it far more likely that the PC can just sit around and profit off of his craftsmanship. Is this important to you? Does this sort of a game beat adventuring any day?  

[Archfiend Damio]

Make it cost less and take less time is just like giving them the Crafting feats form Ebberon.

If you PCs are that into crafting (and by the way they shouldn't be.) Its because they want to 'save' money. But this requires time. If they want to save both they need the feats to do so. Honestly its better to have PCs buy the equipment out right. I mean if your 8th level party is so hard up for cash that they want to MAKE things at a cheaper cost then maybe as a DM that is a sign that you are being a little too stingy on giving your PCs gold.

In the end characters that want to build something SHOULD take feats to do so and if they are not they should run by the rules or buy it from someone. While its not game breaking consider this.

By 12th level I could create a character using the normal rules. That is able to make ANY 14th caster level Magic item or lower. In 1 day with no cost. And I mean NO COST not Exp. Not gold. Nothing but the day. AND he doesn't even have to work on it for a day just an hour of the day if I want. Even more so there are no rules on how many Assistants I can have so I can have as many helpers helping me now represented by the variable 'X' and now in one day I can make 'X+1' Assuming 'X < 8' Still leaving me the time assumed not used during rest as a build time for myself. If X is '24 > X > 8' I would only be able to make X amount due to the fact that you would not actually be able to craft an item unless you spent 16 hours that day crafting an item yourself. NOW there is also a way around this with Warforged grafts or Warforged themselves. BUT there are also rules stating that you DO NOT gain any extra bonus working for the extra 8 hour that you don't have to rest because you don't sleep. In theory I could pop out 24 items a day at no gold cost or Exp. cost. That can be sold or used for 100% profit.

BUT that is all the character does. If your PCs want cheap things that they don't have to pay a lot for. Have one take Leadership and get an Artificer Cohort he can do almost the same thing, the thing is by 6th level it will still take him time and as such it will help the PCs but not Break your game until the cohort reaches level 12 at which point will be able to do the above mentioned. Assuming they have the right feats.

Also for the record I have built this character I retired him because he was pretty boring to play.  

[Archfiend Damio]

Getting back to my point if I am able to do that with the already existing rules with your rules I would be able to make even more and at an earlier level. I could corner the market in 6 CL magic items by level 4. And almost have all the feats to have it cost me nothing because you just made it that much easier.

Now am I say that this is a good reason to throw out your idea. If it works well in your game then be my guest but I recommend watching your PCs to make sure they are not gaining too much power to fast. Just to be sure, this is why people play test things.  

[Avatar129142137]

Yes but, you're not fully informed.

My desire for this is to simply have a more realistic, usable, non-retarded crafting system that is more simple.

ASIDE FROM THAT

Yes, you could make more items, and indeed you could start popping out magic items from the ya-zoo.

However, there is a little something called supply and demand.

You could start selling your items for less than the normal retail price, and perhaps get buyers that way, but the fact of the matter is still supply and demand, and if you're selling for a lower price, you won't be making 100% profit.

Who needs to buy your magic items, when either no one needs them, or everyone already has some.

You could go the way of additive substances though, but then someone is bound to come along and stop you.

My main counter-balance to this easier to pump out items is simply supply and demand, and travel, and distance and all that.

Sure you could hire someone to run a business, use bags of holding, and all that, but now you're paying people to run a business, and there is still the question of supply and demand.

Not to mention if I have to balance out the fact of your kick-a** magical armor, and weapons. I throw more difficult, elaborate challenges your way, that or I can just reward less from dungeons.

I see it as a rough system, and my attempt may indeed be futile, but we'll see.

Aside from that, I don't play Ebberon, I don't use war-forged, and I've never seen/heard of the ebby crafting feats.  

[Archfiend Damio]

Well see that's the thing as a DM I feel the need to be readily prepared for WHAT ever my PCs think they can blind side me with.

So let me ask you if it takes you 1 day to make an item then you sell that item for 1 gold but paid nothing to make it. Then that is 100% profit even if its 1 gold of profit you paid nothing for it so it 100%. Supply and demand is easy you don't just make the same item over and over not to mention all you need to do is supply the right people then other people want it. Its called the "Jonas Effect" Everyone wants to be like the Jonas' and have what they have as such they will pay to get it. Beside if you take your little traveling magic item generator on the road then you can provide your items to people on a much lager scale. Form there you can have millions of gold and then be on top of the world with the things you can buy.

Moving on to your compensation. Alright so I gear my self up with really cool s**t and stuff at our CR isn't even a challenge any more. So you throw a much higher CR at us and it wipes the party out. Then you have the fact that you overcompensated.

And I didn't say your attempt was futile I merely told you a way to exploit it and a reason why you may want to watch your party closer. As well as to say that if your PCs can't afford to buy a longsword there is major problems. And if they are that cheep and want to build it then you should just insure them that they will be getting plenty from adventuring and not to worry about the small things because that is. Not to mention I particularly like the rules. they are so long because people aren't supposed to spend a bunch of time making things... that's not really D&D they are supposed to be adventuring as D&D is based around. The only reason Crafting rules exist is for the fact that people can IF they have the time and for when they just happen to need it for adventuring.

Anyway, I find it funny that you wanted opinions and conductive criticism then when someone gives you them you get angry and completely disagree because it goes against your idea. Sorry. But I am not going to just pat you on the back, pinch your cheek and give you a thumbs up. I am going to tell you what could possibly be wrong with it. Because in my opinion that is what you were asking. If its not then stop posting things publicly and asking for 'Full opinions on your system.'

By the way people didn't make swords over night a lot if could take a master that wanted to make a quality sword up to a month to finish a sword. But a crappy chunk of metal that kind of looks like a sword could take you a day I am sure.
Its fine that D&D was nice enough to have you make a Working NICE and even possibly a master work sword in 1 week if you are good. So if you want to take if further that's up to you. But whatever.

for the record I am done with this topic, it obvious that a realistic opinion is not valued.  

[Arc Vembris]

Insanity Logic

Yes but, you're not fully informed.

My desire for this is to simply have a more realistic, usable, non-retarded crafting system that is more simple.

ASIDE FROM THAT

Yes, you could make more items, and indeed you could start popping out magic items from the ya-zoo.

However, there is a little something called supply and demand.

You could start selling your items for less than the normal retail price, and perhaps get buyers that way, but the fact of the matter is still supply and demand, and if you're selling for a lower price, you won't be making 100% profit.

Who needs to buy your magic items, when either no one needs them, or everyone already has some.

You could go the way of additive substances though, but then someone is bound to come along and stop you.

My main counter-balance to this easier to pump out items is simply supply and demand, and travel, and distance and all that.

Sure you could hire someone to run a business, use bags of holding, and all that, but now you're paying people to run a business, and there is still the question of supply and demand.

Not to mention if I have to balance out the fact of your kick-a** magical armor, and weapons. I throw more difficult, elaborate challenges your way, that or I can just reward less from dungeons.

I see it as a rough system, and my attempt may indeed be futile, but we'll see.

Aside from that, I don't play Ebberon, I don't use war-forged, and I've never seen/heard of the ebby crafting feats.

You should check out Eberron, because it's an example of an economy where a sizable source of magic items exists on the cheap. Their market still isn't near as flooded as this model. I agree, this is the point where you're no longer playing D&D.  

[Avatar129142137]

I don't believe that I stated a sword would take a day?

But a sword say a longsword realistically, I dunno 4-days to a week or two.

I know that a katana can take several weeks, over a month even, hell two months even I think to max.

Maybe more >.> Masterwork and such.


It really depends on the item.


I think I worked it ou-- one second, from the source that told me how fast full suit plates of mail could be made, it would take.... with the proper materials and knowledge at hand.

(Will update the hours required later)


Also, I don't believe I stated anything about free/no required materials.

They would still have to pay 33% of the materials.

Aside from that, I REALLY don't think that I was angry while posting that.

It's just my post style, perhaps I was argumentative, but I do not believe angry.


Anyway, I gotta go, SCHOOL!

Will update this post later, and colour the text that was updated.  

[Avatar129142137]

Now before I post my examples, let it be known that these are people who know what they are doing. So for a more accurate build time, it might have some added hours. As in the Katana may take 5 weeks, and the full plate 1.5 - 2 weeks in non-masterful hands.


A masterwork version would obviously take a bit longer, or significantly longer. Depending upon the item, and level of mastercraft. >.>

Anyway


308 Hours of work to create a standard katana.

That's 4 weeks, working each day for 11 hours.


Working one week, with say an assistant for 14 hours a day. (Adding the hours for the assistant at half for the hell of it because he's doing prep work on straps, wires, and chains and all that, other pieces of the armor, leathers.

147 hours to complete a standard suit of full plate mail armor.


Now yes, you could go and arm the countryside with bran new katana's and full plate armor, and alchemical potions, or magical items.


But then you'd be starting an arms race, now wouldn't you, and I highly doubt a lot of people will like that.

Yes there are more peaceful items that one could sell and turn quite a hefty profit, but one must also assume, if YOU can do this... why couldn't the NPC who's been around longer than you have not?

The answer is, HE can, and HE did, perhaps why you're an FIGHTER adventurer, and not a full time Expert blacksmith.


I'm just saying.


Anyway, not being hostile or angry or anything. This is just my opinion, I personally do think my system would work, BUT I do open up the possibility that my attempt may indeed be futile. Perhaps I just don't want to believe that it will be futile, I dunno, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.


Anywho, comments, opinions? -Dances and rolls around-