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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:09 pm
I'm sure you guys are probably annoyed with this question, but I thought I'd ask people who knew what they were talking about. xD
Anyways, my dad is a (very biased) Christian, and is going on and on about Barack Obama being a Muslim. I asked him, "why is it such a big deal?"
Then he starts talking about the Holy War, and how Muslims are supposed to fight to the death.
I'm thinking, well of course they're told to. The U.S. is fighting to the death at the moment. It's nothing new.
So I thought I'd research the topic a bit, and came across quotes from the Q'uran. I don't know how accurate they are, but it mentioned "striking fear into the hearts of non-believers", and pretty much saying that Muslims should persecute non-believers.
Is any of this true?
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:16 pm
Muslims are not to be feared. If you can quote exact parts of the Qur'an which worry you, please post them and we may clarify for you.
Also, there is no "holy war" in Islam, that is a Christian term from the Crusades.
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:09 pm
I have no clue if the quotes are accurate, hense my asking. And don't worry, I don't fear Muslims. Islam is a religion that I respect greatly. Thanks for replying. O:
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:37 pm
Call Me Apple Muslims are not to be feared. If you can quote exact parts of the Qur'an which worry you, please post them and we may clarify for you. Also, there is no "holy war" in Islam, that is a Christian term from the Crusades. What about ghazis? I'm sure there are many peoples in history who would beg to differ, namely the Persians, Romans, and a few of the Indians. (Not that Persia and India, and those parts of the Roman Empire that were conquered didn't benefit from Islamic conquest and recieve good treatment despite religious differences!)
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:52 pm
Well...Quran we believe in peace. You see, people bend the words like War and give it a negative connotation. All the Quran says is basically warning the people about Hell, and encouraging them to do good. Also telling moral-filled stories. Now is that really scary?
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:08 pm
Michelito Briggs Call Me Apple Muslims are not to be feared. If you can quote exact parts of the Qur'an which worry you, please post them and we may clarify for you. Also, there is no "holy war" in Islam, that is a Christian term from the Crusades. What about ghazis? I'm sure there are many peoples in history who would beg to differ, namely the Persians, Romans, and a few of the Indians. (Not that Persia and India, and those parts of the Roman Empire that were conquered didn't benefit from Islamic conquest and recieve good treatment despite religious differences!) I am familiar with ghazis. Strangely enough, in high school & college history I never heard a word of Muslim's position in the Ottoman Empire (which is why the crecent star & moon often represent the Middle East now) or in the rule of Spain. Can you name particular times in history when Muslims were barbaric or went to war without being provoked? I am still in the process of learning Islamic history, It's very long & detailed (Well, at least my resources are) So far, I've not came to anything that can even compare to the Christian crusades. Of course Muslims went to war with the name of Islam, but at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) Muslims were shunned and stoned for what they believed. I believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) was even shunned by most of his own family over it... So did Muslims go to war for Islam? Yes. But in NO way would I call it a holy war.
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:13 pm
Irish Toast I have no clue if the quotes are accurate, hense my asking. And don't worry, I don't fear Muslims. Islam is a religion that I respect greatly. Thanks for replying. O: Some of the Qur'an discusses Islam in war. And when taken out of context, they can seem questionable. In fact, just the other day someone came to my thread in the LD (which is also about Islam) and posted some questionable Qur'an quotes smile If you look here, [ x ] and look to my first post (2nd post from the top) You can see I quoted him and took my time to explain what they meant. He was quite unappreciative to me, since he was a bigot. Oh well. FOR THE LAZY:Call Me Apple Akala Randwulf "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
"When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5).
"Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29 So here is my response to your post, though you probably wont listen or give a damn. I dont want to go back on my word: Part 1Part 2Part 3And a sweet sister gave me some guidance on Surah 2, she said: Quote: For the second one, looking at the post, I think they meant to put "9:5", which really does say something along those lines. It was explained to me to mean that at the end of the holy months (time when tribal warfare stopped) one might resume fighting with those that had already attacked them, broken treaties, or whatever reason the person was fighting them before the sacred months. And if anyone else wants to put their 2 cents in (Aneesah, Gail, Muhammad (in Bangladesh) feel free to. But your words may fall on deaf ears.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:05 pm
No. People who say that have obviously never read the Qu'ran. And Obama isn't Muslim. Even if he was, why would that matter?
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:39 pm
blackbird creative No. People who say that have obviously never read the Qu'ran. And Obama isn't Muslim. Even if he was, why would that matter? It matters to the average Christian, White American. They think Muslims will turn America into another Middle Eastern Country, Ameristan rolleyes
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:16 pm
Call Me Apple Michelito Briggs Call Me Apple Muslims are not to be feared. If you can quote exact parts of the Qur'an which worry you, please post them and we may clarify for you. Also, there is no "holy war" in Islam, that is a Christian term from the Crusades. What about ghazis? I'm sure there are many peoples in history who would beg to differ, namely the Persians, Romans, and a few of the Indians. (Not that Persia and India, and those parts of the Roman Empire that were conquered didn't benefit from Islamic conquest and recieve good treatment despite religious differences!) I am familiar with ghazis. Strangely enough, in high school & college history I never heard a word of Muslim's position in the Ottoman Empire (which is why the crecent star & moon often represent the Middle East now) or in the rule of Spain. Can you name particular times in history when Muslims were barbaric or went to war without being provoked? I am still in the process of learning Islamic history, It's very long & detailed (Well, at least my resources are) So far, I've not came to anything that can even compare to the Christian crusades. Of course Muslims went to war with the name of Islam, but at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) Muslims were shunned and stoned for what they believed. I believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) was even shunned by most of his own family over it... So did Muslims go to war for Islam? Yes. But in NO way would I call it a holy war. Al-Andalus was a rather successful Muslim state in Hispania and for many years was the most cultured and civilized part of Europe, indeed. But I don't recall hearing that the earlier Visigoths ever provoked the Muslims into attacking them, rather, it was zealous recent converts to Islam who rode rafts across the strait and had almost an entire nation immediately surrender to them (as, it is believed, they saw more in the coming new order than they did in the corrupt Visgothic Kings). The captures of cities were simple and (as it has been suggested by recent archaeological digs) bloodless. But that's irrelevant. The Visigoths in no way provoked the Ummayad caliphate into attacking them. The Romans, for their part, did not directly provoke Muhammed into sending an early army against them (however, Muslim conquest could have been justified if the Qur'anic account is proper, as it explains that these peoples preferred Muslim rule to Roman). However, there is no such explanation for the conquest of the Persian Empire, which hadn't even communicated with the Muslims in any degree. Islam, however, does not have a history in general of being what we would consider barbaric at all. But unprovoked war is something more arguable. I also don't understand the negative connotations of the expression holy war. Were there not many wars even in biblical accounts where God himself approved of them, thus making them Holy? As far as I can imagine, if a war is truly a holy war, there is no war more just than it. Thus, to have a war be styled as a holy war makes it better than a mere war of expansion. Edit: IT should be noted that this is more just questioning the caliphates as legitimate successors of Muhammed, and whether or not they did or did not wage aggressive wars. The Qur'an in no way (as far as I know) promotes violence.
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:58 pm
Michelito Briggs Al-Andalus was a rather successful Muslim state in Hispania and for many years was the most cultured and civilized part of Europe, indeed. But I don't recall hearing that the earlier Visigoths ever provoked the Muslims into attacking them, rather, it was zealous recent converts to Islam who rode rafts across the strait and had almost an entire nation immediately surrender to them (as, it is believed, they saw more in the coming new order than they did in the corrupt Visgothic Kings). The captures of cities were simple and (as it has been suggested by recent archaeological digs) bloodless. But that's irrelevant. The Visigoths in no way provoked the Ummayad caliphate into attacking them. The Romans, for their part, did not directly provoke Muhammed into sending an early army against them (however, Muslim conquest could have been justified if the Qur'anic account is proper, as it explains that these peoples preferred Muslim rule to Roman). However, there is no such explanation for the conquest of the Persian Empire, which hadn't even communicated with the Muslims in any degree. Islam, however, does not have a history in general of being what we would consider barbaric at all. But unprovoked war is something more arguable. I also don't understand the negative connotations of the expression holy war. Were there not many wars even in biblical accounts where God himself approved of them, thus making them Holy? As far as I can imagine, if a war is truly a holy war, there is no war more just than it. Thus, to have a war be styled as a holy war makes it better than a mere war of expansion. Edit: IT should be noted that this is more just questioning the caliphates as legitimate successors of Muhammed, and whether or not they did or did not wage aggressive wars. The Qur'an in no way (as far as I know) promotes violence. Hrrm...the fact of whether Caliphates are legitimate successors of Muhammad (peace be upon him) Is highly debated in the Muslim world. For example, Sunni Muslims (the majority) dont believe that Calphs should be chose on lineage. They should be chosen via an election, based on knowledge and their attributes which can help the community. Shi'ite Muslims are who think Calphs should have lineage from Muhammad (peace be upon him) When you mention Perisian conquest, didnt they convert on their own? Like people of nobility converted, and it moved outward? I also believe to begin with the Persian countries were Sunni sect, but are now widely Shia.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:16 pm
Call Me Apple Michelito Briggs Al-Andalus was a rather successful Muslim state in Hispania and for many years was the most cultured and civilized part of Europe, indeed. But I don't recall hearing that the earlier Visigoths ever provoked the Muslims into attacking them, rather, it was zealous recent converts to Islam who rode rafts across the strait and had almost an entire nation immediately surrender to them (as, it is believed, they saw more in the coming new order than they did in the corrupt Visgothic Kings). The captures of cities were simple and (as it has been suggested by recent archaeological digs) bloodless. But that's irrelevant. The Visigoths in no way provoked the Ummayad caliphate into attacking them. The Romans, for their part, did not directly provoke Muhammed into sending an early army against them (however, Muslim conquest could have been justified if the Qur'anic account is proper, as it explains that these peoples preferred Muslim rule to Roman). However, there is no such explanation for the conquest of the Persian Empire, which hadn't even communicated with the Muslims in any degree. Islam, however, does not have a history in general of being what we would consider barbaric at all. But unprovoked war is something more arguable. I also don't understand the negative connotations of the expression holy war. Were there not many wars even in biblical accounts where God himself approved of them, thus making them Holy? As far as I can imagine, if a war is truly a holy war, there is no war more just than it. Thus, to have a war be styled as a holy war makes it better than a mere war of expansion. Edit: IT should be noted that this is more just questioning the caliphates as legitimate successors of Muhammed, and whether or not they did or did not wage aggressive wars. The Qur'an in no way (as far as I know) promotes violence. Hrrm...the fact of whether Caliphates are legitimate successors of Muhammad (peace be upon him) Is highly debated in the Muslim world. For example, Sunni Muslims (the majority) dont believe that Calphs should be chose on lineage. They should be chosen via an election, based on knowledge and their attributes which can help the community. Shi'ite Muslims are who think Calphs should have lineage from Muhammad (peace be upon him) When you mention Perisian conquest, didnt they convert on their own? Like people of nobility converted, and it moved outward? I also believe to begin with the Persian countries were Sunni sect, but are now widely Shia. What? No, the Muslims invaded Persia and it's population remained largely Zoroastrian for like 200 years. The Persian royal family, for their part, took up residence in China because it wasn't safe for them to be in Persia.
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Call Me Apple Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:55 pm
Michelito Briggs Call Me Apple Michelito Briggs Al-Andalus was a rather successful Muslim state in Hispania and for many years was the most cultured and civilized part of Europe, indeed. But I don't recall hearing that the earlier Visigoths ever provoked the Muslims into attacking them, rather, it was zealous recent converts to Islam who rode rafts across the strait and had almost an entire nation immediately surrender to them (as, it is believed, they saw more in the coming new order than they did in the corrupt Visgothic Kings). The captures of cities were simple and (as it has been suggested by recent archaeological digs) bloodless. But that's irrelevant. The Visigoths in no way provoked the Ummayad caliphate into attacking them. The Romans, for their part, did not directly provoke Muhammed into sending an early army against them (however, Muslim conquest could have been justified if the Qur'anic account is proper, as it explains that these peoples preferred Muslim rule to Roman). However, there is no such explanation for the conquest of the Persian Empire, which hadn't even communicated with the Muslims in any degree. Islam, however, does not have a history in general of being what we would consider barbaric at all. But unprovoked war is something more arguable. I also don't understand the negative connotations of the expression holy war. Were there not many wars even in biblical accounts where God himself approved of them, thus making them Holy? As far as I can imagine, if a war is truly a holy war, there is no war more just than it. Thus, to have a war be styled as a holy war makes it better than a mere war of expansion. Edit: IT should be noted that this is more just questioning the caliphates as legitimate successors of Muhammed, and whether or not they did or did not wage aggressive wars. The Qur'an in no way (as far as I know) promotes violence. Hrrm...the fact of whether Caliphates are legitimate successors of Muhammad (peace be upon him) Is highly debated in the Muslim world. For example, Sunni Muslims (the majority) dont believe that Calphs should be chose on lineage. They should be chosen via an election, based on knowledge and their attributes which can help the community. Shi'ite Muslims are who think Calphs should have lineage from Muhammad (peace be upon him) When you mention Perisian conquest, didnt they convert on their own? Like people of nobility converted, and it moved outward? I also believe to begin with the Persian countries were Sunni sect, but are now widely Shia. What? No, the Muslims invaded Persia and it's population remained largely Zoroastrian for like 200 years. The Persian royal family, for their part, took up residence in China because it wasn't safe for them to be in Persia. Not trying to say you dont know what you're talking about, but do you know any reliable internet sources which say that? If not, what is your reliable book source?
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:52 pm
Call Me Apple Michelito Briggs Call Me Apple Michelito Briggs Al-Andalus was a rather successful Muslim state in Hispania and for many years was the most cultured and civilized part of Europe, indeed. But I don't recall hearing that the earlier Visigoths ever provoked the Muslims into attacking them, rather, it was zealous recent converts to Islam who rode rafts across the strait and had almost an entire nation immediately surrender to them (as, it is believed, they saw more in the coming new order than they did in the corrupt Visgothic Kings). The captures of cities were simple and (as it has been suggested by recent archaeological digs) bloodless. But that's irrelevant. The Visigoths in no way provoked the Ummayad caliphate into attacking them. The Romans, for their part, did not directly provoke Muhammed into sending an early army against them (however, Muslim conquest could have been justified if the Qur'anic account is proper, as it explains that these peoples preferred Muslim rule to Roman). However, there is no such explanation for the conquest of the Persian Empire, which hadn't even communicated with the Muslims in any degree. Islam, however, does not have a history in general of being what we would consider barbaric at all. But unprovoked war is something more arguable. I also don't understand the negative connotations of the expression holy war. Were there not many wars even in biblical accounts where God himself approved of them, thus making them Holy? As far as I can imagine, if a war is truly a holy war, there is no war more just than it. Thus, to have a war be styled as a holy war makes it better than a mere war of expansion. Edit: IT should be noted that this is more just questioning the caliphates as legitimate successors of Muhammed, and whether or not they did or did not wage aggressive wars. The Qur'an in no way (as far as I know) promotes violence. Hrrm...the fact of whether Caliphates are legitimate successors of Muhammad (peace be upon him) Is highly debated in the Muslim world. For example, Sunni Muslims (the majority) dont believe that Calphs should be chose on lineage. They should be chosen via an election, based on knowledge and their attributes which can help the community. Shi'ite Muslims are who think Calphs should have lineage from Muhammad (peace be upon him) When you mention Perisian conquest, didnt they convert on their own? Like people of nobility converted, and it moved outward? I also believe to begin with the Persian countries were Sunni sect, but are now widely Shia. What? No, the Muslims invaded Persia and it's population remained largely Zoroastrian for like 200 years. The Persian royal family, for their part, took up residence in China because it wasn't safe for them to be in Persia. Not trying to say you dont know what you're talking about, but do you know any reliable internet sources which say that? If not, what is your reliable book source? The emigration of the Persian royal family to China is covered in the book "A History of Chinese Civilization" by Jacques Gernet, as it is mentioned that the Persians became trusted lieutenants within the Chinese state at the time (I believe Song dynasty?). The slow conversion of the Persians to Islam is something I was more under the impression of, but it is true that the nobility converted to Islam first. It's just suggested if not utterly stated that the peasantry either slowly converted, or mass-emigrated out of Persia to India, where they became the Parsis and the Iranis. I'll try to find a book that will agree with that statement. However, that Muslims have gone to war unprovoked is as easy as stating one of the most famous warlords in history: Tamerlane. This was a fellow who rather cruelly massacred his fellow Muslims and built pyramids of their skulls, who styled himself a Ghazi even as he killed his own comrades in faith under false pretenses that only barely veiled his true intents. However, I regretted to state him as he did not represent Islam as a faith in the same way the Caliphates did. I'm still not entirely sure the caliphates didn't go to war unprovoked against the Visigoths, the Vandals ((Not sure about this one, the Vandals were defeated by Belisarius but they could have been back in Carthage (Tunis) by the time the Caliphates rolled around)), the Romans and the Persians. Islam isn't accountable for all these minor Sultans, Shahs and other lesser leaders, as Islam historically did not even acknowledge their existence as legitimate, as it was believed (I'm under the impression) that the Muslims should be under a Caliphate. You'd know more about that than I would.
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