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Reply 6:: Topic: Animals.
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ravenkitty776

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:45 pm



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Do you even know the definition of terrorism? If you did, then PETA wouldn't be considered a terrorist group in the slightest.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:34 pm


Terrorism is defined by its outcome and not so much its actions. If people on a large scale can be driven to terror (hence the word terrorism) then the aim is accomplished. The definition is contingent on the fear it evokes.

PETA is nutty. They kill a lot of animals and use many tactics I find to be quite reprehensible. Altogether I do not like them. Some of their tactics seem to involve inspiring fear and staging abuse, which is shameful given that abuse is so common already. They do fit the definition of terrorists to an extent, but it seems like there are different extremes to which this is true.
Their goals I support (the means are ineffective and quite screwed up). I am a vegan and I know very well that cutting our consumption of meat is both healthy and necessary in promoting sustainability. Dairy is unnecessary, unhealthy and generally appalling. So I agree with them in this respect but the ways in which they go about it (or perhaps by which some of their affiliates go about it) I do not support.

ELF, I'm not sure about. There isn't much in the way of actual coverage on them. I would hardly call them terrorists because of this -- their aims don't seem to be to actually evoke fear so much as further action. Some of the things they have done I have no objection to; however, I don't know enough to say decisively.

Figuren


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:34 pm


The Sea Shepherds are eco-terrorists, and they know it - it's why they fly a Jolly Roger. Jolly Rogers are flown by pirates to incite fear (terror) in the crews of the ships they are approaching. Terrorism is how pirates operate - if their target is not afraid of them, and thus doesn't back down, they fail.

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The Sea Shepherds admit to most of their actions on their own website, including the sinking of two ships in 1980 for which they are the only official source of info:

http://www.seashepherd.org/who-we-are/our-history.html
Quote:
April: On April 28th, the pirate whalers Ibsa I and Ibsa II are sunk in Vigo, Spain. The sinkings enforce the quota violations that the Spanish whaling fleet had committed. The same month, Sea Shepherd agent Jet Johnson posts reward posters all over the waterfront of Las Palmas in the Canary Islands. Sea Shepherd offers a $25,000 bounty on the outlaw whaler Astrid. The Astrid's owners are unable to trust their own crew and retire the vessel.


In their captain's own words (Source: http://www.highnorth.no/library/movements/Sea_Shepherd/se-sh-re.htm ): (Boldfacing mine, for emphasis.)

Quote:
We confront dangerous people. As the captain, it is my responsibility to protect the lives of my crew ... Therefore, I have prepared myself for the possibility of defending my crew in a situation that could go never occur, but if it does I will use firearms to first intimidate and then to defend.


ELF, ALF, and many other eco-terrorist groups use similar tactics - destroying private property, threatening individuals (including some who are only peripherally associated with the research or activities they're protesting), and using aggressive intimidation to try to force their view on others.

"Convincing" someone of anything through fear and intimidation will always fail catastrophically. How well did President Bush's "shock and awe" tactics in Baghdad "convince" the Iraqi people to turn their country over to us? How well have we "convinced" the Taliban that they're wrong? How well has the Taliban "convinced" Americans that we are wrong?

If a bully "convinces" you to give him your lunch at school, does that make you think the bully is right and deserving of your lunch? Or does it make you think he's a bully, wish all sorts of unhappy things on him, and complain that the school authorities aren't doing enough about "his type of people?"

Whaling, dolphin-hunting, sealing, over-fishing, poaching - these are all things that need to be stopped. However, they need to be stopped at their source, which is not the hunters. The source is the people creating the demand for the animal products. Hunters in these trades hunt for profit. They are making a lot of money off of whales, dolphins, seal skins, elephant tusks, etc. They're not selling to fellow hunters. It is the customers who are creating the demand who have to be stopped, and it's proven (because so many illegal operations are still running) that simply making a law will not stop demand.

A better route is to send educators directly to the markets. Find out why people think these animal products are a desirable luxury. Find out why they're willing to shell out a great deal of hard-earned money for them. Find substitutes that are more environmentally conscious. Teach people about what they're funding by creating the demand. Offer alternatives that can satisfy their wants and still be sustainable.

Don't want animal testing? Quit using cosmetics and medications for every little thing. Promote and encourage Drug Test Cowboys, aka human drug testing, if you think all of these meds are necessary. (Many times, drugs pass animal testing and then fail at the human testing level anyway, because animals and humans are different enough in how we react to chemicals.)

Don't want animals farmed for fur and leather? Quit wearing fur and leather, and at the same time promote synthetics - or better yet, natural fibers like cotton - used in innovative ways to provide a similar look and feel. We now have cloth that mimics the shimmer of butterfly wings without dyes - is there any reason we need to keep using animal products?

There are always solutions that avoid violence and intimidation.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:20 pm


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I still think that we are bending and twisting the definition of what terrorism around groups and organizations. The Sea Shepherds use intimidations of their flag to show whalers that they mean business, but they commit no violence as a legitimate terrorist group would i.e. Al Qaeda. There is also no political gain for neither PETA nor the Sea Shepherds, which is the goal of terrorists as the definition states.

Dictionary.com Unabridged:
"The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political reasons"
World English Dictionary:
"Systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal"



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ravenkitty776


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:23 pm


ravenkitty776
I still think that we are bending and twisting the definition of what terrorism around groups and organizations. The Sea Shepherds use intimidations of their flag to show whalers that they mean business, but they commit no violence as a legitimate terrorist group would i.e. Al Qaeda. There is also no political gain for neither PETA nor the Sea Shepherds, which is the goal of terrorists as the definition states.

Dictionary.com Unabridged:
"The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political reasons"
World English Dictionary:
"Systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal"


I agree.
Anyway, I just got my copy of Behind the Mask, but have yet to watch it. I'll let you all know if its any good and a recommended watch about the ALF.
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