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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:17 pm
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:48 pm
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Suicidesoldier#1 Absolute Virtue Yeah, the law normally makes no such distinction. Eh what? O_o That's what they do all the time; murderers, thieves, etc.
Technically, they're destroying lawbreakers. That's the whole Law/Chaos axis, if you don't mind the throwback.
The main problem seems to be that you're trying to be Evil, without embracing the fact that you're Evil. You're trying to be "Good Evil" so to speak. Evil for a Good cause is still Evil. Good for an Evil cause is still Evil. It's that drop of ink that, when allowed to spread, turns the entire sheet of paper as black as one's corrupt heart.
Ofilius has no such noble intentions. He'll kill a b***h just to watch him die. No bush-beating, no excuses, no moral justification. The ends justify the means. Step up, or step off. heart |
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:59 pm
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Rain Yupa Suicidesoldier#1 Absolute Virtue Yeah, the law normally makes no such distinction. Eh what? O_o That's what they do all the time; murderers, thieves, etc. Technically, they're destroying lawbreakers. That's the whole Law/Chaos axis, if you don't mind the throwback. The main problem seems to be that you're trying to be Evil, without embracing the fact that you're Evil. You're trying to be "Good Evil" so to speak. Evil for a Good cause is still Evil. Good for an Evil cause is still Evil. It's that drop of ink that, when allowed to spread, turns the entire sheet of paper as black as one's corrupt heart. Ofilius has no such noble intentions. He'll kill a b***h just to watch him die. No bush-beating, no excuses, no justification. The ends justify the means. Step up, or step off. heart
That's not my character though.
He's not a raging psychopath.
Let's take a look at a fascist society; everyone follows the rules, works for the state, is under singular rules, possibly prosperous, possibly altruistic, much like Communist Russia- the ideal militaristic setting for a holy warrior paladin.
But is it really?
Various freedoms are discarded, various hopes and dreams, various aspirations, as people are forced to slave away and work for possibly "the greater good" without comfort or luxuries that would otherwise be inefficient.
Do we consider such a society, "good"- it certainly has noble intentions, but is it, really good?
The Authority pervading everyone's life, telling what to do, what to think, why to do things and when; you own nothing, you are nothing, you're a member of the state and if torture is the means of saving it so be it, if murder quite possibly than so be it.
Is the society truly corrupt if it's intentions are notably pure; maybe not good per say, but definetly pure.
In comes the paladin; vanquishes his enemies to burn in an eternity to hell. Sure, we might view this as vindictive, harsh, who knows what; how can one be punished for a finite crime eternally? But they are; does that make a paladin "evil" to kill and slaughter so much? Where does the fine line between good and evil develop, obviously, blatantly, specifically, or is it gradual, insignificant, not obvious.
Hence in comes the concept of "morally grey", no black and white good or evil but simply existence.
Course with my character over-all despite his good intentions I'd type class him as evil for the same reason I'd type class Stalin that way, or even Lenin, or even less obviously bad characters, much like how an avenger is only obviously darker.
Course I thought that was part of the point; personally I hate psychopathic characters myself, and I don't really see the fascination with them. They don't seem tough they seem stupid, mindless, heartless, no real in depth qualities about them or interesting character features, just bland stupid people. Course, hollywood always exemplifies this magical character who lacks empathy or sanity yet somehow magically knows how the world works. Pure fantasy and dribble of course but it's funny that people imitate this so often. |
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:29 am
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:17 am
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:20 am
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As already said, you're really trying to describe something that's more unaligned than evil, but I'll take the bait.
Your paladin serves a pantheon of evil gods, ok. Your character's mission now, as you have written, is:
Quote: He set out to become a divine soldier of his Gods, granted new weapons and forever full-filling their service, seeking to spread destruction, chaos, and madness wherever he went, as he set out to spread his adventures and achieve his God's desire, spreading the word of their greatness.
Ok, so let's break it down from there.
You want to cast yourself as chaotic evil, and I can understand your thinking for this, but your character is everything but chaotic.
A chaotic evil character is for the most part a nut case. They don't do evil things because they are morally obligated to do it. They don't try to justify why they do evil things. They do it because they simply want to. They don't care about what you, the law, or a god thinks. Rain's already been over this.
A character who follows a bunch of rules(laws), be them man or god made, does not fit into the chaotic archetype. A chaotic paladin is a fallen paladin. Being a paladin is all about following rules, otherwise you'd just be an avenger.
So at best, that would simply just make you evil since lawful evil falls under that umbrella in 4e I guess.
Your questions about good and evil and where do you draw the line is a matter of perspective, but it's a pretty common concept that villains, evil or not, feel like they are doing the right thing. Unless they're a psychopath and chaotic in nature, they don't normally view what they're doing as necessarily wrong or evil. However, we have it easy, we know who the good guys and bad guys are in the mythology.
What it comes down to, and as you stated, your character is hell bent on his deities' agendas. So if you're spreading destruction and madness, which means you're going to against the majority of the universe here, then you're evil. Seriously, your character walks around the world trying to conquer everyone and everything in the name of Bane.
People don't like being conquered and bullied around. You're breaking the law of those respective places, you're getting a wanted poster.
And the same would apply to a lawful good paladin too.
If they were to unjustly(by local custom) murder someone, they would have a wanted poster too. They would also probably lose favor of their deity as well. The difference is that a lawful good paladin is much less likely to commit serious crimes, like intentionally cause disorder, than an evil paladin.
If your character wasn't going to get wanted posters, it would mean he's failed pretty hard at serving his gods. In which case, Bane would most likely have killed him for his incompetence.
But I don't get how it's so hard to understand how your character, who so far as we've known been a rogue follower of these evil deities, would cause trouble for an adventuring party he joins. Especially when he has a religion hard on for gods that require him to do s**t that would piss people off.
Just looking over the personalities in the party, you're probably going to be lucky to live after your first bible rant.
But yeah, I'm sure you have it and all, but does the description of your paladin fit this?
Chaotic Evil Chaotic evil characters have a complete disregard for others. Each believes he or she is the only being that matters and kills, steals, and betrays others to gain power. Their word is meaningless and their actions destructive. Their worldviews can be so warped that they destroy anything and anyone that doesn’t directly contribute to their interests. By the standards of good and lawful good people, chaotic evil is as abhorrent as evil, perhaps even more so. Chaotic evil monsters such as demons and orcs are at least as much of a threat to civilization and general well-being as evil monsters are. An evil creature and a chaotic evil creature are both opposed to good, but they don’t have much respect for each other either and rarely cooperate toward common goals.
or this
Evil Evil characters don’t necessarily go out of their way to hurt people, but they’re perfectly willing to take advantage of the weakness of others to acquire what they want. Evil characters use rules and order to maximize personal gain. They don’t care whether laws hurt other people. They support institutional structures that give them power, even if that power comes at the expense of others’ freedom. Slavery and rigid caste structures are not only acceptable but desirable to evil characters, as long as they are in a position to benefit from them.
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:31 am
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:58 am
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:24 pm
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Absolute Virtue As already said, you're really trying to describe something that's more unaligned than evil, but I'll take the bait. Your paladin serves a pantheon of evil gods, ok. Your character's mission now, as you have written, is: Quote: He set out to become a divine soldier of his Gods, granted new weapons and forever full-filling their service, seeking to spread destruction, chaos, and madness wherever he went, as he set out to spread his adventures and achieve his God's desire, spreading the word of their greatness. Ok, so let's break it down from there. You want to cast yourself as chaotic evil, and I can understand your thinking for this, but your character is everything but chaotic. A chaotic evil character is for the most part a nut case. They don't do evil things because they are morally obligated to do it. They don't try to justify why they do evil things. They do it because they simply want to. They don't care about what you, the law, or a god thinks. Rain's already been over this. A character who follows a bunch of rules(laws), be them man or god made, does not fit into the chaotic archetype. A chaotic paladin is a fallen paladin. Being a paladin is all about following rules, otherwise you'd just be an avenger. So at best, that would simply just make you evil since lawful evil falls under that umbrella in 4e I guess. Your questions about good and evil and where do you draw the line is a matter of perspective, but it's a pretty common concept that villains, evil or not, feel like they are doing the right thing. Unless they're a psychopath and chaotic in nature, they don't normally view what they're doing as necessarily wrong or evil. However, we have it easy, we know who the good guys and bad guys are in the mythology. What it comes down to, and as you stated, your character is hell bent on his deities' agendas. So if you're spreading destruction and madness, which means you're going to against the majority of the universe here, then you're evil. Seriously, your character walks around the world trying to conquer everyone and everything in the name of Bane. People don't like being conquered and bullied around. You're breaking the law of those respective places, you're getting a wanted poster. And the same would apply to a lawful good paladin too. If they were to unjustly(by local custom) murder someone, they would have a wanted poster too. They would also probably lose favor of their deity as well. The difference is that a lawful good paladin is much less likely to commit serious crimes, like intentionally cause disorder, than an evil paladin. If your character wasn't going to get wanted posters, it would mean he's failed pretty hard at serving his gods. In which case, Bane would most likely have killed him for his incompetence. But I don't get how it's so hard to understand how your character, who so far as we've known been a rogue follower of these evil deities, would cause trouble for an adventuring party he joins. Especially when he has a religion hard on for gods that require him to do s**t that would piss people off. Just looking over the personalities in the party, you're probably going to be lucky to live after your first bible rant. But yeah, I'm sure you have it and all, but does the description of your paladin fit this? Chaotic Evil Chaotic evil characters have a complete disregard for others. Each believes he or she is the only being that matters and kills, steals, and betrays others to gain power. Their word is meaningless and their actions destructive. Their worldviews can be so warped that they destroy anything and anyone that doesn’t directly contribute to their interests. By the standards of good and lawful good people, chaotic evil is as abhorrent as evil, perhaps even more so. Chaotic evil monsters such as demons and orcs are at least as much of a threat to civilization and general well-being as evil monsters are. An evil creature and a chaotic evil creature are both opposed to good, but they don’t have much respect for each other either and rarely cooperate toward common goals. or this Evil Evil characters don’t necessarily go out of their way to hurt people, but they’re perfectly willing to take advantage of the weakness of others to acquire what they want. Evil characters use rules and order to maximize personal gain. They don’t care whether laws hurt other people. They support institutional structures that give them power, even if that power comes at the expense of others’ freedom. Slavery and rigid caste structures are not only acceptable but desirable to evil characters, as long as they are in a position to benefit from them.
Yeah, but I'm not following exact guide lines, that was never really my intention.
My character may be evil but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to end up on a wanted poster.
The way he operates doesn't have to be set in stone exactly; seeking death and destruction doesn't imply that he will end up killing random people even if he does disregard them as important.
But I'm going with the dwarf instead; sense the concept of morally grey eludes you all it's the option I'd go for. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:25 pm
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Sardonic Smite Your analogy is flawed. There's nothing objectively evil about authoritarianism or socialism, nor is there any observable evidence that such systems produce people that are objectively evil. On the other hand your character is a chaotic evil warrior in service to evil gods, who all have explicitly evil intentions.
Uh, of course there's nothing inherently evil about it, in comes morally grey... |
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:30 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:33 pm
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The best way to think of it is my characters wants to spread death and destruction.
He goes into a village; a good character may help build wells, sing songs, bring the people together, whatever.
Does my character have to burn the whole village down?
Not at all; both the good and bad characters also kill the evil dragon that's plaguing the livestock.
Does killing said evil dragon make my character the good guy, just becuase it helps the townspeople?
The difference between the two actions morality was the mind set; I wanted to kill the dragon out of sheer love of death and destruction, and said good guy wanted to do it to help the townspeople.
Because I disregarded the townspeople all together I did not burn the village down becuase I did not care, nor did I try to benefit them; had they had something I wanted and need I had to slaughter them all to get it, maybe I would have.
But given that said circumstances only involved killing the dragon I used the local townspeople to tell me where it was and more about it rather than explicitly try to help them.
A surgeon rips out a person's heart and replaces it with another one; a serial killer does it. Is any action inherently bad? Of course not, but it's the motivation behind it that ultimately decides whether or not it was a morally correct thing to do. Police stalk, police officers break into people's house in the middle of the night with guns; but so does a serial killer or a burglar.
Thus I'd type class my character as evil based on his motivations but not necessarily his actions, over-all.
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:44 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:49 pm
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Rain Yupa Suicidesoldier#1 A surgeon rips out a person's heart and replaces it with another one; a serial killer does it. Is any action inherently bad? Of course not, but it's the motivation behind it that ultimately decides whether or not it was a morally correct thing to do. Police stalk, police officers break into people's house in the middle of the night with guns; but so does a serial killer or a burglar.
"No, really, stop, if you want to live out the day."
I guess my real problem is my character hasn't done anything that overtly would have put him on a wanted poster.
I get to decide his background right?
Wasn't that the point of me designing the character; it's possible he's only recently been turned evil and hasn't spread any destruction yet- maybe later on in the game he gets put on a wanted poster for an action he did, but just to say that he's on one doesn't make any sense.
I mean, who's to say that my so called good character won't be on a wanted poster; if the DM just gets to decide this then what's the point?
If it's not something my character would have done but the DM is arbitrarily saying it did it based on no real criteria (and anything he could have misinterpreted I've explained) what's the point?
If I have no real control over what my character does or will so or what he has done becuase the DM said "poof, you killed a baby, now your on a wanted poster becuase you chose character concept I don't really see the point of playing it.
If that's how he's going to be then what's the point of playing at all?
I might as well not have a character and it just be an NPC if it's going to be taken out 30 seconds after we even begin the game for a crime I never did or some other inane reason. |
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:59 pm
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