Dark Sun 3.5 - Surviving (OOC)

[Slave Xaccheus]

I know I should have probably asked first, but Savage Species did trim down the ECL of this monster class (which is harmless and not at all OP for this, I promise).

Rolling health for an Air Elemental, currently small.  

[Slave Xaccheus]

Jupiter

And yes, I'll admit, he's not in the Player's Handbook, but technically he IS in the Monster Manual. He's just a baby right now.  

[Raganui Minamoto]

EC: You'll have to give me a bit to look over the elemental stuff. While it's an interesting concept, most Elementals on Athas are enslaved and bound there or briefly summoned. So, wondering why Mr. Air Elemental man would be around.  

[Wrasynth Ksyamen]

I still want to play an orc from the under dark. As I thought about it and it'ed be impossible to crusade and genocide all orcs. They're generally too deep into the under dark to have possibly gotten them all. I know not all campaign settings have the under dark, but it's equivalent pretty much invariably exists because of all the subterranean creatures. Orcs being one of those.  

[candy express]

I don't think Dark Sun has underdark... it is like Tatooine.  

[Wrasynth Ksyamen]

What? No it absolutely has to have an under dark. There are SOOOOO many subterranean creatures. Like just giant bugs that will eat you alone. Yaun-Ti and the like as well. There are still beholders and mind flayers. This is still D&D.  

[Strawberry Bathory]

There are underground ruins and the tunnels of burrowing animals (those that haven't collapsed yet), as well as places like Undertyr. However, there's no massive miles deep cave network connecting everything together like in Toril or Oerth (Defilers are bad for the structural integrity of the earth).

Yaun-Ti have never been an underground race, I don't see why they'd start being so in Dark Sun. There's no mention of Beholders or Mind Flayers in any official Dark Sun material, and I think their existence would be unlikely (unless you're using something from SpellJammer as a reason for them being there).

As for Orcs, they've never been the brightest creatures out there, and only 1st ed ever mentioned them living underground. The chances of any of them surviving the Cleansing Wars is unlikely, and any that did have probably long since perished. I could see, maybe, someone with orc blood, but not even enough to qualify as half-orc.  

[Wrasynth Ksyamen]

Ok first off.

Athas

Proof that not the whole world was burnt dead. There is also epic level for Athas as well which means extra planar shenanigans.

Further more orcs are not book smart. They are how ever clever. Have you ever heard of the book of 'dirty orc tricks,' it's a bit obscure but it tells of a lot of simple but really clever tricks. Orcs being portreyed as universally dull witted brutish thugs is just lazy when there are nine mc billion instances of them not. Orcs have a C because it's not spelled with a K 40k orcs have splitting headaches that are only stopped by fighting. They /HAVE/ to fight. That's why they do crazy suicidal things. Orcs on the other hand do not. They have intense brutal blood lust driving them to be stupid; this is tempered by their more cunning side; and this is further tempered by the shamanistic nature of the orcish tribes as well. The squared root of all orcs for literary progenitor would be the Unseelie court. They're cruel fey, how ever this changed when war hammer got a hold of them for miniature gaming. As war hammer is the mother and father of D&D. 1st ed has clunky mechanics because it was a miniatures system that was further refined over and over. Which branched off into several different places. As loathe as I am to give good and bad examples of orcs? Lurtz was cunning and blood thirsty, Thrall from WoW, and even Obold Many-Arrows from Faerun.

The point is labeling all orcs as generic dim witted thugs is just ignorant and lazy. I'd claim it borders on negative racist stereotypes if that wasn't the obvious case for several several D&D races that we're all guilty of. However this is not to say that you or anyone with that opinion is stupid; but to illustrate the vast array of examples to the contrary? It just seems like to ignore all that seems ignorant.

Orcs are also just plain subterranean. Once again to say they're not is just plain ignorant. They have dark vision, light sensitivity, their habitat's have subterranean listed as one of them. Further more?

Yes there totally are illithids in the under dark inside Athas.

Once again to make this perfectly clear, I absolutely do not intend ignorant in an offensive manner. I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to know much about orcs. Trust me I've prolly made fun of my self more than anyone else could by exposing my degree of knowledge over something so uselessly esoteric as this. Esoteric is in the wrong context though crying ; it's implying that me and people who know this are 'enlightened' which I disagree with.

So with this presentation is it plausible for orcs to still be alive? Yes. Very much so. Are they a playable race? That's a DM call it'ed be awkward culturally for a none surface dwelling orc to try and get out on the surface. The orc would be ignorant of a lot of realities that you need to be aware of for surface dwelling. Not too mention he'd need goggles made pretty asap so that he didn't go blind. Well he'd prolly have them, orcs prolly are aware the surface will blind them unless they armor their eyes.

Am I saying I should abandon Shaqim? No unless this really does seem like an interesting RP opportunity to explore. I can elaborate psychologically and emotionally why this would be an interesting option if the kaibosh isn't planted down.

Am I saying playing an orc would be smart here? NOOOO! It'ed be hard mode for hard mode. Like I think my balls are just that big but that's a different story about my arrogance.

Which reminds me I think I got Shaqim squared away. I need to do some minor gear and rename Shaqim something more Dwarfy. However I think besides my hardened outlander BS I'm going to end up playing something strange for the sake of not doing the same crap over and over.  

[Strawberry Bathory]

I never said that the whole world was burnt. A quote I found while looking for info on Dark Sun underdark was "Skip Williams said not in particular. There's underground caves and stuff, but no massive miles deep cave network connecting everything together like in Toril or Oerth. Defilers are bad for the structural integrity of the earth." (Found in the same topic you linked) Yes, there's cave systems and underground ruins, but not an Underdark per se.

As for the intelligence of Orcs, in D&D they are below average human intelligence. What they have in other games/books is irrelevant for the discussion. Yes, you can get the occasional bright orc, but those aren't exactly common.

As for being subterranean, while you'd think they would be, both 2nd and 3rd ed have them listed as living above ground, despite their light sensitivity. 1st ed did have them living below ground 75% of the time, but I'm seeing this as taking up residence in ruins, dungeons, and near-surface caves rather than deep caves like the underdark.

Either way, it's GM preference whether they want Uyness to have missed a few Orcs that took refuge underground. Though given the length of time she spent on the cleansing and the fact that divination magic would be able to tell her if there were any orcs still alive, I doubt she did a half-a** job. Also, there'd have been a least some encounters with them long before now if they still existed.

Also, the link concerning Illithid in Athas actually says the opposite, that there aren't any unless the DM specifically wants to add them (though they mentioned reasons for them being their as having followed the Gith, hence the SpellJammer reference).

Final note: DM can of course change anything they want to suit the way they want their game to be, I'm simply going of what is canon for the setting and the system.

 

[Wrasynth Ksyamen]

First of all you implied the world was burnt beyond being capable of structurally supporting a cavernous system. Which is silly. Although I would feel safe saying the under dark wouldn't be able to surface in most places as the structural integrity of sand is easy to compromise.

We're not debating whether or not they did or did not exist. Only that to believe that there would very well reasonably be some survivors. As Athas has only half formed canon; while a very popular setting it's very obscure. It was formed during the a** end of 2nd ed and poorly reformed on line during 3.0 several years into it being cemented into a game system. It was then revised again for 3.5, and then once more for forth ed. Which is evident that this isn't nearly as fleshed out in canon as many other settings. Which is why we use other settings as models for reference. Which is to further illustrate the fact that there will inherently be plot holes for each DM to fill in or ignore depending on the flavor and pacing of the game. As it all comes from the same root as you had mentioned earlier; referencing the behavior as being consistent all the way back to first edition.

(You can honestly skip this paragraph debating the behavior of orcs traditionally. It's relevance is only peripheral. I wish I remembered how to use the spoiler mechanic to take this part of the post out so only people who really wanted to read it would.)

To which I obviously disagree. there is plenty of examples to the contrary, enough so that yes the general populace is dull witted brutes , their leadership has to be to the contrary. As historically in our world or any other setting leader's that are bullies have brutal endings. Not to say they wouldn't exist but prosperous leaders that are bullies happen to generally be intelligent as well. As the bullies generally end up being puppets for the smarter manipulators or you run into one's like Obold-Many Arrows. Which doesn't invalidate yours or my references. I just think you're ignoring a lot of evidence to the contrary. Which Is why I even bothered making all the orcish references. As they all too, came from the same root. Which is why this bullet point is of any significance.

(We're back to relevance.)

I can tell you after doing a brief amount of research through wiki the cleansing by Rajaat champions weren't done by gods but simply aspects of them. This means they were also inherently flawed. It even points out how some of the crusades just straight up failed. Further cementing the fact that they were flawed. They illustrate how all of these champions were killed. The possibility of there being an under dark, and a possibility of their beings obscure villages of Orcs fighting bitterly to survive in the under dark is almost certain(If there is an Under Dark that is.), this is however my opinion.

I also researched another place through a couple Google searches. Half Orcs apparently did escape the cleansing. I still firmly believe that the surface orcs would reasonably be wiped out, but the very tedious act of hunting down all the cavern dwellers would be nigh on impossible. Especially illustrated by the Rajaat being fallible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun  

[Strawberry Bathory]

Most likely, any major Underdark system would be inaccessible from the surface, and quite possibly at least partially collapsed from things like earthquakes.

I'll agree that it's possible that a small tribe or two might have manage to take refuge underground in an attempt to hide from the cleansing. However, despite the Champions being flawed, Uyness is listed as having complete her cleansing rather than having failed, and as I mentioned before, divination magic would have, at the very least, let her know if there were any orcs left alive.

As to the half-orcs, while I'll agree those might have survived the cleansing, most likely the orcish blood would by now be so thin as to be insignificant. Also, if you're referring to this for your info on half-orcs, this is non-canon material created by someone not associated with WotC/TSR, and is simply given as a 'plausible' means of having half-orcs in Athas.

 

[Slave Xaccheus]

Raganui Minamoto

EC: You'll have to give me a bit to look over the elemental stuff. While it's an interesting concept, most Elementals on Athas are enslaved and bound there or briefly summoned. So, wondering why Mr. Air Elemental man would be around.

Escaped slave, maybe? Or even a slave to another character in the party, in a sort of "She/He is my master" kind of setting? After briefly being summoned, he may have hung around due to the open space of the charred, burnt-dead world (which to him is beautiful). Since he can out-fly most people, he could even be an escaped slave after his magic imprisonment broke.  

[Jacior]

*Volunteers to have elemental slave*  

[Wrasynth Ksyamen]

I actually agree. The only structurally sound places to breach the surface are almost equally inhospitable. I don't really need to illustrate just how bad it is in general. I can't believe this is the one setting where the under dark has more resources than the surface world (if there is an under dark.)  

[candy express]

Er, about orcs:
They have a penalty to int, so the normal orc will be spectacularly dumb. Dumb on the level of "one skill point per level" unless they go rogue. As for inspiration, well, Lord of the Rings had them, which is where the D&D orcs came from*. D&D did not come from Warhammer, just the opposite: Warhammer was made as a parody/pastiche wargame, heavilly influenced by D&D, even the spell system is taken from D&D/Chainmail. 1st ed has clunky mechanics because it was essentially a pile of houserules applied to the original D&D, which was not clunky, and was VERY rules light. (More correctly, it was a bunch of supplemental rules for 'od&d' gathered from all different books and put into one book.) So to say orcs are not dumb is just wrong. According to D&D, they are. The nature of the game means that while the normal orc will be dumb as hell, there are smart ones, and they become wizards or clerics, or just smart warriors who rise to the top and are able to lead their tribe well. But to use them as evidence that orcs are not dumb, well, that's just silly.

As for their environments, well, according to both the 3.5 monster manual and the SRD, they have one, and only one environment: Temperate Hills.



*From Chainmail, the game D&D came from, orcs fought as 'heavy foot', and their description runs:
ORCS: Besides reacting to light in the same manner as Goblins do (after all Orcs are nothing more than over-grown Goblins), Orcs are quarrelsome and factious. According to the best authority, there are at least five kinds (tribes or perhaps clans) of them. These are: 1) Orcs of the (Red) Eye, 2) Orcs of Mordor, 3) Orcs of the Mountains, 4) Orcs of the White Hand, and 5) Isengarders. It can therefore be assumed that if there are two or more units of Orcs, they will be from differing bands. If Orcs of different kinds approach within a charge move of each other, and they are not meleed by the enemy, they will attack each other unless a score of 4 or better is rolled on an "Obedience die." There are giant Orcs which fight as Armored Foot and have a Point Value of 2½.
yes, I have the chainmail booklet. Yes, I went looking through that stuff to see who was right. Yes I had nothing better to do... gonk