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 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:12 pm
namida_no_chi eristell_neko There is a BIG diffrence between 'gothic' and 'goth'.
From Gothic(from a view of Gothic styles or genres as dark or gloomy).]
Dictionary.com later goes on to define gothic as:
#
1. Of or relating to an architectural style prevalent in western Europe from the 12th through the 15th century and characterized by pointed arches, rib vaulting, and a developing emphasis on verticality and the impression of height.
2. Of or relating to an architectural style derived from medieval Gothic.
# Of or relating to painting, sculpture, or other art forms prevalent in northern Europe from the 12th through the 15th century.
often gothic Of or relating to a style of fiction that emphasizes the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.
Granted, there is also this last definition, but I really think this definition just comes from people taking a word, and trying to make it mean something else (by mutating and distorting the original meaning). You have to think: What did this word originally mean? Gothic had the first 3 definitions hundreds of years before fake goth ('modern goth') was created. I think that means the original meaning has priority over what the general public knows as 'gothic'.eristell_neko Goth either a) a roman-era civilization centered in germany, fance and other countries of europe, or b) a modern fashion. Goth fashion is what you see being worn by alot of highschoolers. Gothic is a) an arcitecture style, b) a font style, or c) another modern fashion. eristell_neko Gothic is what alot of us wear. Unfourtunately, the general public hears these two words and think 'hey, goth is just short for gothic, so they must be the same thing'. Well, no, it isn't. And that's where we get alot of missunderstandings. That's funny. MY dictionary (Merriam-Webster's Desk Dictionary, published 1995 [yes, it's a bit old, but belive me, it hasn't changed much]) says Goth 'gath(the a has those two dots over it) n : a member of a Germanic pepple that early in the Christian era overran the Roman Empire 1 Gothic 'ga-thik (again the a has the two dots over it) adj 1 : of or relating to the Goths 2 : of or relating to a style of architecture prevalent in western Europe from the middle 12th to early 16th century 2 Cothic n 1: the Germanic Language of the Goths 2: the Gothic architectural style or decoration So far, I do not see how my definitation in my original post (asside from the fashion part) are in error. My dictionary says nothing about how Goth is derived from the word Gothic (in fact, it seems to be the opposite) and if you wish I can actualy scan that page of the dictionary and put it up here. The fashion definations that I gave are from my observations on the fashion(s). I gave the two fashions the diffrent names because, over the course of the development of a fashion and slang, the words will naturaly come to mean two diffrent things. Very rarely will I talk to someone who wears what Hot Topic usualy sells and hear them say 'oh, I dress in the Gothic style'. I usualy here them say 'I'm a Goth!' and that's it. The people that I speak to who wear clothing closer to the lolita fashion refer to it as 'gothic' and never 'goth.' As far as who as a 'right' to redefine word, well, frankly , I think anyone speaking that language has that right. Language does not belong to any one person. It belongs to everyone. And words have gone through revisions since language was invented. "Guy' has not always been slang for 'a man'. It was orgiginaly a man's name. (you read about this in history class. has to do with the French revolution). 'f*****t' used to mean a bundle of sticks (yet again a dictionary thing) and now it is a derogitary slang for a homosexual person, and on that note 'gay' used to mean 'happy and joyous' and now it means 'homosexual'. It also used to be a name. '********' used to mean 'to plant a seed in the ground' and now it is a slang term for the reproductive act. 'Dude' used to mean 'an easterner in the west' (aka someone from the east coast over in the west coast) 'Dandy', or 'a city dweller'. Now it's used to refer to men in general. 'Kid' used to mean 'a baby goat' and now it means 'a child'. 'Hot' used to mean, just that, hot, and now it means 'sexy'. 'p***y' used to mean 'a cat' and even that was slang, and now it is slang for a woman's reproductive area. So pretty much, I think people should stop whining about the fact that 'goth' means something that it didn't originaly mean. Oh, and in the future, use a real, printed dictionary and not dictionary.com, since dictionary.com is not a reliable refrence.
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:24 pm
Oh, and a bit more to add onto this. If 'Gothic' was originaly 'the Germanic Language of the Goths' or 'of or relating to the Goths' then 'the Gothic architectural style or decoration' and ': of or relating to a style of architecture prevalent in western Europe from the middle 12th to early 16th century' are already bastardizations of the original word. What's one more bastardization after eons of bastardizations? Hmm? And I have never, evern seen painting, sculpture or other art forms (besides architecture) refered to as 'gothic'. In all of my art textbooks, they've always had their own names.
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:42 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:46 pm
Agotha Fang i'm glad that HotTopic has some lolita things, but just last year and a few years earlier HotTopic carried alot of mainstream styles. And that upset me greatly! I just wanted the hottopic i remember when i was younger, where only punks and goths shopped there. Not preps and trendies shopping there. i mean i went to buy something and one girl was wearing a polo shirt from aeropastle....and she was working there! i know becoming mainstream will get them more money, but it upsets me when everyone dresses alike! and the people who have woren that style for years before it become popular get called posers. like my glasses are thick black plastic glasses. i've worn them since i was 13. WAY before emo was popular and people started wearing black thick rimmed glasses. And the kids in my school, who are "emo" are calling me a poser...... *sighs* thats my rant for today..... Hot topic has NOTHING lolita, mabe loliable with a lot of alterations but not lolita. And hot topic IS pretty mainstream and a store. They arn't going to alienate part of their potential market by making it too alternative.
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:04 am
I'll agree with namida_no_chi. As one who has studied linguistics, I can tell you that "gothic" is derived from "goth" simply by adding a suffix, and you probably won't find that in an online dictionary (can't check my printed dictionary; it's packed hours away sweatdrop ) Anyway, the English language is made up of many words whose meaning has changed over time. "Boy" was originally an insulting word for a b*****d child and "thing" was originally a council, not an object.
Please, don't get too hung up on the specifics. Whether one likes HT or not is his own business. I have seen some which carry decent lolita wear, and I have seen some with nothing but crap. It just depends on the location. As long as they're not selling BBTSSB in stores here, some people are going to have to wear HT. Is the true validity in the dress itself, or how the person wearing it presents his/herself?
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:05 pm
terachi+KAIshaku I'll agree with namida_no_chi. As one who has studied linguistics, I can tell you that "gothic" is derived from "goth" simply by adding a suffix, and you probably won't find that in an online dictionary (can't check my printed dictionary; it's packed hours away sweatdrop ) Anyway, the English language is made up of many words whose meaning has changed over time. "Boy" was originally an insulting word for a b*****d child and "thing" was originally a council, not an object.
Please, don't get too hung up on the specifics. Whether one likes HT or not is his own business. I have seen some which carry decent lolita wear, and I have seen some with nothing but crap. It just depends on the location. As long as they're not selling BBTSSB in stores here, some people are going to have to wear HT. Is the true validity in the dress itself, or how the person wearing it presents his/herself? I personally believe it relys upon the person, but the Lolitas of Japan seem to think differently. Then I guess it depends upon who's opinion you care about xp
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:31 pm
namida_no_chi terachi+KAIshaku I'll agree with namida_no_chi. As one who has studied linguistics, I can tell you that "gothic" is derived from "goth" simply by adding a suffix, and you probably won't find that in an online dictionary (can't check my printed dictionary; it's packed hours away sweatdrop ) Anyway, the English language is made up of many words whose meaning has changed over time. "Boy" was originally an insulting word for a b*****d child and "thing" was originally a council, not an object.
Please, don't get too hung up on the specifics. Whether one likes HT or not is his own business. I have seen some which carry decent lolita wear, and I have seen some with nothing but crap. It just depends on the location. As long as they're not selling BBTSSB in stores here, some people are going to have to wear HT. Is the true validity in the dress itself, or how the person wearing it presents his/herself? I personally believe it relys upon the person, but the Lolitas of Japan seem to think differently. Then I guess it depends upon who's opinion you care about xp True. But do they even have HT in Japan? I think we already decided that there are a few inescapable differences between Western and Japanese lolis.
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:51 pm
terachi+KAIshaku namida_no_chi terachi+KAIshaku I'll agree with namida_no_chi. As one who has studied linguistics, I can tell you that "gothic" is derived from "goth" simply by adding a suffix, and you probably won't find that in an online dictionary (can't check my printed dictionary; it's packed hours away sweatdrop ) Anyway, the English language is made up of many words whose meaning has changed over time. "Boy" was originally an insulting word for a b*****d child and "thing" was originally a council, not an object.
Please, don't get too hung up on the specifics. Whether one likes HT or not is his own business. I have seen some which carry decent lolita wear, and I have seen some with nothing but crap. It just depends on the location. As long as they're not selling BBTSSB in stores here, some people are going to have to wear HT. Is the true validity in the dress itself, or how the person wearing it presents his/herself? I personally believe it relys upon the person, but the Lolitas of Japan seem to think differently. Then I guess it depends upon who's opinion you care about xp True. But do they even have HT in Japan? I think we already decided that there are a few inescapable differences between Western and Japanese lolis. Ya know, I dunno if they do or not... But I'm not saying there's aren't differences. It still falls upon who's opinion you care about more on what is more Lolita. The original Lolis of Japan, or Western Lolis. Where as, the original Japan lolis may say stuff like HT 'loli' isn't real loli, and a lot of western Lolis might say it doesn't matter. And I totally used the word 'loli' too much just now.. xd
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Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:23 am
namida_no_chi, I do agree with you that 'goth' and 'gothic' are linked, but I still say that the two modern usages of the words are diffrent. I was never saying that a tuxedo that was heavily altered in the way that you stated would still be a tuxedo and worn to a dinner party or anything. I do not see anywhere in my post where I said it would. And to me, a tuxedo is not 'gothic' or 'goth' or anywhere in that realm. To me, it's more contemporary dress, usualy seen in the public eye as 'normal' to wear to certain functions.
And as far as slang, you just proved my point. Several of the words that I gave you had nothing even resembling it's original meaning. 'p***y' is a good example. The only thing that I can think is it's connective thread is that both are hairy. 'gay' is another one, as well as 'guy' and 'f*****t'. 'Guy' is the only one remotely like it's new meaning, since the original 'guy' was a man. I may be a 'real goth' as you call it (I am part german after all) but I am also open to all fashons, and I accept people's right, here, in the gold ol' U.S. of A. to call that fashion what they want, even if it is a bit miscostrued. I may get a 'bad reputation' from the so called 'fake goths' but instead of just sitting here and complaining about the reputation, I go out and attempt to educate others about the fact that no, I do not do drugs, no I do not cut myself, and hey, I like Toby Keith just as much as the next person, in small doses that is.
My school textbooks are not history texbooks from elementry school. They are college-grade, art textbooks, used by several professors in the feild of art restoration, art study, art critique, and others. I have not seen anything about Columbus discovering america, and I do not belive he did.
Fake goth and punk are slightly diffrent, and if a few of my 'real punk' (useing your termonology) saw you calling 'fake goth' punk, then, well, they'd be just as pissed off at you for calling it that as you are pissed off at 'fake goths' for using the word goth.
Also, I know many, many, many thousands of us here in the U.S. of A. are decendants of those germanic people as well. Why can't we give the word another definition? Is our blood so impure that our ansestors could redefine the word, but we can't? Thank you.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:24 pm
eristell_neko namida_no_chi, I do agree with you that 'goth' and 'gothic' are linked, but I still say that the two modern usages of the words are diffrent. eristell_neko I was never saying that a tuxedo that was heavily altered in the way that you stated would still be a tuxedo and worn to a dinner party or anything. I do not see anywhere in my post where I said it would. And to me, a tuxedo is not 'gothic' or 'goth' or anywhere in that realm. To me, it's more contemporary dress, usualy seen in the public eye as 'normal' to wear to certain functions. eristell_neko And as far as slang, you just proved my point. Several of the words that I gave you had nothing even resembling it's original meaning. 'p***y' is a good example. The only thing that I can think is it's connective thread is that both are hairy. 'gay' is another one, as well as 'guy' and 'f*****t'. 'Guy' is the only one remotely like it's new meaning, since the original 'guy' was a man. I may be a 'real goth' as you call it (I am part german after all) but I am also open to all fashons, and I accept people's right, here, in the gold ol' U.S. of A. to call that fashion what they want, even if it is a bit miscostrued. eristell_neko I may get a 'bad reputation' from the so called 'fake goths' but instead of just sitting here and complaining about the reputation, I go out and attempt to educate others about the fact that no, I do not do drugs, no I do not cut myself, and hey, I like Toby Keith just as much as the next person, in small doses that is. eristell_neko My school textbooks are not history texbooks from elementry school. They are college-grade, art textbooks, used by several professors in the feild of art restoration, art study, art critique, and others. I have not seen anything about Columbus discovering america, and I do not belive he did. eristell_neko Fake goth and punk are slightly diffrent, and if a few of my 'real punk' (useing your termonology) saw you calling 'fake goth' punk, then, well, they'd be just as pissed off at you for calling it that as you are pissed off at 'fake goths' for using the word goth. eristell_neko Also, I know many, many, many thousands of us here in the U.S. of A. are decendants of those germanic people as well. Why can't we give the word another definition? Is our blood so impure that our ansestors could redefine the word, but we can't? Thank you.
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:19 am
I think hot topic has some alright egl or gothic lolita apparel but not too much to offer regular lolitas. I do find it a great place to get knee highs though...sometimes rather. Some of their shoes are cute as well. I don't mind Hot Topic. It helps me out sometimes with little accessories and stuff. Not everything there is gothic like most people think. There are some super cute things too.
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:07 pm
hottopic is owned by abercrombie and fitch.
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:46 pm
Hot Topic is great for Gothic clothing, but for Lolita in the US I prefer vivcore.com
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:40 pm
I've been there a few times to buy presents for others. It doesn't carry my style of Lolita clothes so I don't shop there for myself.
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:48 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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