Parents not revealing child's sex

[Taeryyn]

LorienLlewellyn

Alarias

Bunch of hippie BS...I feel bad for "Pop".

It's "hippie BS" to have parents who want their child to find him/herself? I don't think so. I'd say it's hillbilly BS that some people aren't supportive and open minded about it.

Right, we're hillbillies just because we can imagine that this is going to alienate the kid and potentially cause issues for him or her down the road.
I know you're directing that at Ala (which is laughable, by the way), but please don't presume to know whether I'm "open minded" based on my opinion of some Swedish kid's parents. Same goes for the rest of the guild.

I don't think many people here are arguing that the child shouldn't be allowed to "find" him or herself. Kals worded it quite well. If the kid wants to do stereotypically "girly" things, let him/her, if it wants to act like a stereotypical boy, great. If it wants to do both, or neither, who cares?

We aren't hillbillies just because we disagree with you. rolleyes  

[Alarias]

wakusei

And I would think allowing a boy to play with dolls while also calling him a he would teach the lesson of gender neutrality moreso than letting a boy play with a doll and refusing to tell him his gender.

I agree with this (even if they don't refuse to tell Pop his/her gender). Better to teach the child how to handle other people and their criticisms/opinions rather than to try and prevent people from having opinions of them or judging them. People are always going to try and influence others with their ideas of what's acceptable and appropriate. It's pointless and silly to try and keep that from happening.
They are trying to make others who interact with Pop think about their own ideas and perceptions of gender...and in effect, are sending a message through their child who is not capable of deciding whether or not they agree with this.

It's not a way to raise a child. It's a way to use a child.  

[Kalib]

wakusei

But if this isn't something they plan to do long-run, then why bother at all? Children don't even start retaining memories until after 3 or 4 so what difference is it going to make if by the time the kid is 3 or 4 they're open about their gender?

Letting your kid pick what they want to wear and play with, and hiding the kid's gender specifically don't have to go together, in my opinion. You can do the first bit without having to do the second.

"Oh, what a cute child, is it a he or a she?"

"A he."

"Oh. He has a Barbie?"

"Yep. We don't care what he plays with."

"Oh, okay."

*kid mindlessly plays not giving a crap about what the adults are talking about*

Seriously. It wouldn't be hard, and it wouldn't make a difference. So to do otherwise just comes across as the parents purposely trying to be sensational or something.

And I would think allowing a boy to play with dolls while also calling him a he would teach the lesson of gender neutrality moreso than letting a boy play with a doll and refusing to tell him his gender. I mean, the kid is gonna start to wonder what's with the secret keeping.... And that can lead to second-guessing themselves.

Or worse not trust it's own parents.
If they would keep your gender from you what else are they keeping from you.  

[Arcanas]

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...  

[Thaliat Everwood]

I was just wondering why everyone in here assumes (or seems to assume) that Pop's parents aren't going to tell Pop what sex Pop is, just because they aren't telling those outside of the family about Pop's sex? I do not think that is the case at all. I think that if Pop asks "am I a boy or a girl" that Pop's parents will tell Pop. They did, after all, say that it would be up to Pop to disclose Pop's sex whenever Pop decided to refer to Pop's self in a gender related term. It would imply that Pop would be allowed to know Pop's own sex. The parents just said they aren't telling other people Pop's sex...and Pop will definitely blurt it out before starting school, that is a given. Little kids and keeping their own secrets just don't go together.

If I ever reproduce, I won't tell other people my kid's sex either. Who cares. I'll let my kid decide who they want to tell and when. The child can know their own gender without the parents needing to tell it to the rest of the world. If the kid likes to wear girlish clothing, but the sex is male, who cares...let them make their own choice. My little brother played with Barbies for years, and he's totally normal as an adult. And he used to dress oddly as a little one. So I don't see a problem with it.

Some parents are just not going to be crammed into that "traditional parenting" box, it doesn't make them bad parents by default. So long as they are not abusing or neglecting the kid, I'm not worried. Pop will be fine. I'm sure Pop knows if Pop is a boy or a girl, but since Pop's parents aren't concerned about it Pop isn't either. Pop will reveal the mystery of Pop's sex in due time.  

[TurtIe Tracks]

wakusei

But if this isn't something they plan to do long-run, then why bother at all? Children don't even start retaining memories until after 3 or 4 so what difference is it going to make if by the time the kid is 3 or 4 they're open about their gender?

Letting your kid pick what they want to wear and play with, and hiding the kid's gender specifically don't have to go together, in my opinion. You can do the first bit without having to do the second.

"Oh, what a cute child, is it a he or a she?"

"A he."

"Oh. He has a Barbie?"

"Yep. We don't care what he plays with."

"Oh, okay."

*kid mindlessly plays not giving a crap about what the adults are talking about*

Seriously. It wouldn't be hard, and it wouldn't make a difference. So to do otherwise just comes across as the parents purposely trying to be sensational or something.

And I would think allowing a boy to play with dolls while also calling him a he would teach the lesson of gender neutrality moreso than letting a boy play with a doll and refusing to tell him his gender. I mean, the kid is gonna start to wonder what's with the secret keeping.... And that can lead to second-guessing themselves.

Oh, ok that makes sense. 3nodding I don't think though that the point is for the kid to "find his/herself," I think it's for the kid to not have to feel others automatically categorizing them... like so that the people around them see the kid not as say, a boy who plays with Barbie dolls, but just as a kid who plays with Barbie dolls. (I mean I could be wrong but...) Like even if they accept it, they will still see the child differently. (Again, while people are different in multiple aspects, at least where I live people wouldn't see a white girl playing with Barbie and a black girl playing with Barbie in a different light.)

The second-guessing themselves I see could happening though, I hadn't really thought about that before. I shall think about this. smile

@Kalib: They're not keeping the sex from the kid, if they were how would he/she ever learn to go to the bathroom?  

[Alarias]

But what exactly is the message they are teaching Pop then? That if you don't like other people judging you, you should hide who you are from them? Isn't that ...sort of working against the goal to broaden people's minds about what gender is?  

[Trish the Stalker]

wakusei

]
I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. In my experience, people are judged on race far more than they are their gender.

Even with gender roles, everyone is still accepting of the existence of both men and women. Some men may think women belong in the kitchen or some such nonsense, but they still accept the female sex as a whole.
Racism is much more extreme to the point of genocide. Hitler didn't only kill women, for example...he killed people for being a different race, having different religious beliefs, having a different sexuality than he was.
People are far more judging of those sorts of factors.

To me, it's ridiculous to consider sexual identity such a big issue to go to the extremes these parents are taking when there are far bigger matters they don't seem to care about hiding instead, or at least as well. It just makes them seem very hypocritical.

Men are judged by their gender A LOT more than anyone is by race in the western world. Your female example is right but what if a straight man wanted to wear a dress? Women can wear pants but not vice versa. Women's rights have come a long way but don't say for a moment that little boys are allowed to play with dolls, cry or like pink, let alone heterosexual adult males.

-Formerly La Belle Isolde-

 

[wakusei]

The article says Pop knows the physical difference between a boy and a girl. But I didn't quite gather if the kid knows which it is all the same. If it knows what it is, then I really don't get the big deal the parents have ever more. If the kid knows what it is, then they can watch other people and already identify genders and what stereotypically goes with what. Females have boobs, males do not. Males have bulges, females do not. I thought the point was for the kid to not be able to tell gender enough so it chooses its own, not simply to keep it from everyone in the world but the kid and its parents? I mean...there'd be zero purpose to that.

If the parents want to follow through on their belief that gender is a social construction, then telling the kid what it is goes against that, doesn't it?

Thaliat Everwood

If the kid likes to wear girlish clothing, but the sex is male, who cares...let them make their own choice. My little brother played with Barbies for years, and he's totally normal as an adult. And he used to dress oddly as a little one. So I don't see a problem with it.

I completely agree and don't see a problem either, and think most people here do also.... I don't think this is what's really being debated.
I have a problem with the pronoun game and the parents' motivation behind the secrecy and how that will effect the child.


EDIT:

Trish the Stalker

Men are judged by their gender A LOT more than anyone is by race in the western world. Your female example is right but what if a straight man wanted to wear a dress? Women can wear pants but not vice versa. Women's rights have come a long way but don't say for a moment that little boys are allowed to play with dolls, cry or like pink, let alone heterosexual adult males.

The point I was trying to make was more that if the parents wish to hide the gender, then they should have considered hiding race, heritage, etc. as well as they are all major factors which people are judged on. Race vs Gender discrimination is another topic all together....

And I'm certainly opposed to judging a guy who exhibits stereotypical "female" behavior. I didn't say little boys are allowed to play with dolls, etc. And that's also kinda my point! By hiding Pop's gender, the parents are refusing to show that little boys can play with dolls. Instead it's the "it" playing with "whatever." They're instead making no point at all by hiding the gender completely, even possibly from the child itself. So no lesson is being learned. Nothing is being tolerated and moving forward with change and diversity in society. All the parents are doing instead is making a spectacle for the sake of their own curiosity. The child can receive no benefit from their "experiment." Which is starting to look like less and less of anything at all....  

[Jafthasleftthebuilding]

Arcanas

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...

An extremely clever one that brought the world to its knees once.  

[Arcanas]

Jaft

Arcanas

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...

An extremely clever one that brought the world to its knees once.

Once... But still, gotta give the guy props for managing to do it.  

[Shram]

Arcanas

Jaft

Arcanas

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...

An extremely clever one that brought the world to its knees once.

Once... But still, gotta give the guy props for managing to do it.

I thought the homosexuality part was speculation?
The guy was a genious though... and a flawless record when he went into politics  

[God-Raped-Me]

Shram

Arcanas

Jaft

Arcanas

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...

An extremely clever one that brought the world to its knees once.

Once... But still, gotta give the guy props for managing to do it.

I thought the homosexuality part was speculation?
The guy was a genious though... and a flawless record when he went into politics

He was one of the greatest leaders a country could ever have. Not for the rest of the world, but he did great things for Germany. A truly great and powerful man in the worst possible way.  

[Erius zee Dog]

Jaft

Arcanas

And to think, Hitler was also Jewish. And gay...boy, was he a hypocrite...

An extremely clever one that brought the world to its knees once.

Ironically though....the one who eventually got shafted..was him... razz
But he was ahead of his time in some things.