|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:46 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:15 pm
 |
|
|
|
Well...I'm Catholic...and my belief is this. People tend to forget that before all other Christian sects were even considered, there was Catholicism. And some Sects seek to undo us by speaking of our saints, and the past acts of the Catholic church...BUT the fact is that all of christianity came from Catholicism. So their history as far as the crusades are concerned, is indeed the same as ours. As for Catholic saints, most people do not understand the nature of it.
When you speak a saint's prayer, you are not worshiping the saint. A saint is merely one of god's favored. Yes, god has favorites. Sorry to tell you this, but I don't remember reading anywhere that god likes everyone equally. He may love everyone equally. But Loving and liking are two different things. Now, when you speak a saints prayer, you are asking one of god's favored to make a petition to god for you, instead of you actually making the petition yourself. As god is more likely to say yes to one of his favored.
Please note that a true catholic does not worship the saints. To worship any other than God the father, is a sin. Also note that a Saint must be recognized as such by the Vatican. There are many people who call themselves catholics, but petition to figures that are not saints by our faith. A perfect example is this "Santa Muerte" that many Latin americans tend to petition...and even at times worship. I myself do not see this as a saint...nor does the Vatican. In all honesty, I see it as an evil that has attempted to disguise itself as one of the father's favored Saints.
Also, should any of you seek to point the finger at catholicism, please do look at your own sect and the flaws of its men first. A common theme with non-catholic churches is Greed. In other words, you collect funds with which to fill your pockets, and do not give back much. I've sat through a few baptist or non-denominational sermons. And 60% of the time is spent listening to someone talking about tithes. And how tithes must be 10% of one's income before taxes...and how you could lose your salvation, should you not pay your tithes. And all of this, spoken from a man wearing an armani suit, driving a Rolls Royce, and selling videos and "Holy Water" for extensive prices. Or would it be the extensive pressuring of people who are not at all interested to join your church....telling them they could lose their salvation if they dont.
Now, in regards to funds and donations to the catholic church. All funds are indeed controlled by the Vatican. these funds are used to provide a humble or semi-humble living for members of the clergy, maintain Catholic churches, and buy supplies (Chalices, bread, communion wine, candles, etc.) The rest is either stored or given to the less fortunate. His holiness, the Pope may live in some less than modest surroundings. However, he is the head of the church. And his surroundings depict elegance, not greed. Furthermore, the church is voted for by the college of cardinals...which mean he doesn't merely choose to put himself in this position.
With this, I don't mean to attack you. But I do wish for you to open your eyes and see that nobody in this world is perfect. Man is flawed. Every man is flawed and no man is without sin. God willed man to be flawed. And because man is flawed, man should humble himself before god. And man should not pass judgement apon man. As Catholics...we have an extensive history of judging others. But that is because Catholicism is an old sect...an old sect which was there for a VERY long time before any other decided to branch away from it. Which means that other sects had time to learn from the mistakes of the predicessors. But in the end, all christian religions trace back to catholicism...so my history is indeed your history. Martin Luther was indeed a catholic before he was protestant.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:32 pm
|
|
|
 |
jix-kun Again I wish to point out that Santa Muerte is NOT a Catholic saint recognized by the Vatican. Please get your facts straight. Santa muerte is part of a Mexican spin off of catholicism. There are also mexicans who claim they can convene with god, and have been granted gifts to see the dead and convene with spirits in the name of god. All of this...is for lack of better words, evil. On the note of the chapel in poland, its likely an old crypt from the middle-ages. A time when the burials of today were considered much too expensive and time-consuming. And likely a time before protestantism...which meant that this is part of your history as well. Excuse us for using the church's funds for the purpose of preserving history instead of lining the pockets of greedy ministers.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12
"When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a Necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."
We are not to be charmers [chabar], or those who become fascinated with the spirits of the dead. We are not to ask of, or consult the [owb], which is the familiar spirits of the dead. We are not to be a Wizard [yidd'oniy], or one who is in communion with the spirits of the dead. And we are not to be a Necromancer [darash], or one who pursues or seek out the spirits of the dead. I mean how much plainer can it be that communing with, for or to the dead is unbiblical? We have biblical examples of the abomination inherent in this desire to seek help from the dead.
Then a mass grave would be more appropriate, with maybe a monument erected for the occasion. Disrespectful to the dead using their bones as decoration, and it seems inappropriate for a church that is supposedly representing Christ to make their church a monument to death.
Believing in him give us everlasting life, and bodily Resurrection from the dead. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:53 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:04 pm
|
|
|
|
You arent truly understanding. In these times, this was the equivilent of a mass burial. Many clans and families had crypts similar to this. Because standard burial and funerals like we have today were costly. So your skull adorned the wall with your family. It wasn't to be a sign of disrespect to the dead.
As a matter of fact, while we do not worship the dead, we do in fact honor them. And saints are not exclusive to catholicism. A few of our saints are shared throughout protestantism, orthodox, and non-denominational sects of Christianity. Saint Jude is a perfect example. Along with Michael the Arch-angel. Furthermore, Saints are indeed mentioned in the bible.
Philippians 4:21 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.
Are specific names mentioned? No, but the bible does indeed acknowlege Saints as a part of christianity. And saints are not meant to be prayed to...or even truly spoken to. They are meant to be prayed through. Using their voice to petition to god. Because god so favored these saints. But I must ask you. How can you cast judgement on something that you do not understand? How can you say that we worship Idols, when most non-catholic churches erect a christmas tree around december 25'th. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the history behind the christmas tree, and you'll find that its a paegan symbol). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:20 pm
|
|
|
|
thedenomerator jix-kun Again I wish to point out that Santa Muerte is NOT a Catholic saint recognized by the Vatican. Please get your facts straight. Santa muerte is part of a Mexican spin off of catholicism. There are also mexicans who claim they can convene with god, and have been granted gifts to see the dead and convene with spirits in the name of god. All of this...is for lack of better words, evil. On the note of the chapel in poland, its likely an old crypt from the middle-ages. A time when the burials of today were considered much too expensive and time-consuming. And likely a time before protestantism...which meant that this is part of your history as well. Excuse us for using the church's funds for the purpose of preserving history instead of lining the pockets of greedy ministers. You keep calling the ministers greedy, as if you were categorizing all of them that way. Should someone start calling all of the Catholic priests *****? I hate seeing people using that argument against Roman Catholics, so I think I should also hate your stereotyping of Protestants. Besides, I don't think I've ever met a rich pastor, priest, or minister, and I've lived in many different places.
Creflo Dollar ministries
David Odeyepo ministries Inc. (Really, this is actually a BUSINESS! I cant consider anything with Inc. On the end to be a church)
John Hagee ministries
New Creation Christian Fellowship- I've been to this one because a friend of mine goes there. It looks like an office building, and the minister constantly preaches about how people need to pay tithes, and how it must be 10% of one's income before taxes. And then there's the selling of videos at a kiosk at the front desk. And last month, the congregation sought fit to buy the pastor a Rolls Royce using church funds. And I'm expected to believe that this is a humble man of god?
How can one man tell another that if they don't give him money, their access to paradise will be severed? That their friendship with god will be challenged?
I'm not saying that all of the ministers are this way. But you can't deny that there are quite a bit. Just like I cannot deny that there are a fair number of catholic priests who are *****. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:39 am
|
|
|
|
Since I've never met one, I don't know how many there are. I would assume that there is a much smaller percentage tithe-pushing, greedy ministers than there is of those who seem to only want people to give what they can, if they can, to help the entire church. Or maybe there are certain areas where this is more true than in other places. I've moved through a lot of states, but I've never been entirely on the western coast of the US, or too much into the Southwest. I'm not sure where you're from, but it's possible that it's a geographical discrepancy. Maybe big-city types, televangelists, and businessmen. I can't argue that they don't exist, but I don't like that your arguments make it look like you assume that everyone is that way. I will, however, assume that most ministers and priest are, or at one time or another, corrupt. They are human, and it is much more humanly advantageous to sin than not to, in many cases.
So, to sum this up: don't argue with generalizations. They stereotype and divide when they shouldn't. These points exist to some degree, but I thought that this thread was better-suited to finding what is similar in Christianity and the main sect of Catholicism (not the obscure stuff). If this thread is in a Christian guild, stop trying to dehumanize the churches of the non-Catholics. It's the opposite of the unity that it is trying to achieve. You might believe that Roman Catholics are the right Church, but that doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) should try tearing everyone down because of select incidences. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:56 am
|
|
|
|
jix-kun You arent truly understanding. In these times, this was the equivilent of a mass burial. Many clans and families had crypts similar to this. Because standard burial and funerals like we have today were costly. So your skull adorned the wall with your family. It wasn't to be a sign of disrespect to the dead. As a matter of fact, while we do not worship the dead, we do in fact honor them. And saints are not exclusive to catholicism. A few of our saints are shared throughout protestantism, orthodox, and non-denominational sects of Christianity. Saint Jude is a perfect example. Along with Michael the Arch-angel. Furthermore, Saints are indeed mentioned in the bible. Philippians 4:21 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. Are specific names mentioned? No, but the bible does indeed acknowlege Saints as a part of christianity. And saints are not meant to be prayed to...or even truly spoken to. They are meant to be prayed through. Using their voice to petition to god. Because god so favored these saints. But I must ask you. How can you cast judgement on something that you do not understand? How can you say that we worship Idols, when most non-catholic churches erect a christmas tree around december 25'th. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the history behind the christmas tree, and you'll find that its a paegan symbol).
Symbols are what you make of them. Indeed, some pagans may have used decorating a tree for some form of celebration or other event... but in modern times? Some people like to put up a Christmas Tree because they like a different decoration in their house for awhile, and I'm willing to bet that a number of parents like the joy on their kids' faces for the whole presents thing.
As for the whole Saints thing... Well, there are actually quite a few definitions of the word, and I highly doubt that the author of Philippians was thinking "special individuals canonized by the Pope as being more sacred and special than normal people, and they have special places in talking with God". Since, y'know, there was no Pope then, and the only context for the term could've been Super-Early Christianity or Then-Modern Judaism. I'd say it's much more likely that the word was being used in the context of "the collective body of those who are righteous in God's sight" (third entry of the World English Dictionary), or maybe just for the sense of dead Christians (another interpretation of the word), since he explicitly referred to those with him afterwords.
Also, as I understand it, all human souls are barred from Heaven until Judgement Day. So, yeah.
The thing about saints is... well... I've never seen, anywhere in the Old Testament or the Gospels, any indication that we're supposed to pray to them. To me, saints strongly feel like idols. I'm sure that at least most of them were good people, devout Christians, etc... but I won't pray to them or through them. I believe that human souls exist to be God's companions, you see, and I'll be darned if I ever go for something like "well, only the SPECIAL Christians can be close to God, the rest of us shouldn't be there...". |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:24 am
|
|
|
|
The whole idea of the tree came from the paegan festival, which was also around December 25th. As a matter of fact, its also been proven that December 25'th isn't Jesus's date of birth because the time of Jesus's birth described in the bible depicts a much warmer climate. Even knowing this, I still put up a tree on Christmas. Cause I like the spirit of the holidays.
As for the saints, I refuse to push the point any further. Its become apparent to me that it would be a waste of breath. You don't understand. You never have understood, and you will likely never understand. Just know that when we pray, we do so in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spririt. And in the Catholic faith, when you die, you go to Heaven, Hell, or a form of Purgatory. The belief that souls are barred from Heaven until Judgement day is mostly an Orthodox belief, if I remember correctly. Our belief in judgement day is a bit different, but the main belief is this. The people on earth's relationship with god will be made bare to decide if they will perish and be engulfed in the flames of hell, or join in the paradise of heaven. However, those who are in heaven will remain in heaven. Those in hell will remain in hell. And those in purgatory shall find salvation in paradise. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:54 am
|
|
|
|
jix-kun You arent truly understanding. In these times, this was the equivilent of a mass burial. Many clans and families had crypts similar to this. Because standard burial and funerals like we have today were costly. So your skull adorned the wall with your family. It wasn't to be a sign of disrespect to the dead. As a matter of fact, while we do not worship the dead, we do in fact honor them. And saints are not exclusive to catholicism. A few of our saints are shared throughout protestantism, orthodox, and non-denominational sects of Christianity. Saint Jude is a perfect example. Along with Michael the Arch-angel. Furthermore, Saints are indeed mentioned in the bible. Philippians 4:21 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. Are specific names mentioned? No, but the bible does indeed acknowlege Saints as a part of christianity. And saints are not meant to be prayed to...or even truly spoken to. They are meant to be prayed through. Using their voice to petition to god. Because god so favored these saints. But I must ask you. How can you cast judgement on something that you do not understand? How can you say that we worship Idols, when most non-catholic churches erect a christmas tree around december 25'th. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the history behind the christmas tree, and you'll find that its a paegan symbol).
The Middle Ages lasted approximately 900 years. It began around 500 AD and lasted until 1400 AD. The chapel is called Kaplica Czaszek in Polish.
The difference between saints and a Christmas three is that the three serves merely as a decorative piece. No one uses the three to pray to God through, at least that I know of. Whoever believes in Jesus, and receives the holy Spirit is a Saint. Through the Holy Spirit you have direct access to God. The Bible states there is one mediator between God and man. It doesn't allow for other mediators to be used to reach God. It doesn't say that one saint is more favored then the other.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:10 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:48 am
|
|
|
|
I also have problems with transubstantiation, the Eucharist and papal authority over scripture.
For those who do not know: transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is the doctrine that, in the Eucharist, the substance of wheat bread and grape wine changes into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus, while all that is accessible to the senses (the appearances - species in Latin) remains as before. Meaning we physically eat Jesus. He comes down into the bread and the wine and we literally have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved.
Rome feels it has all the scriptural proof it needs for the doctrine of transubstantiation in John ch. 6, where the Bible makes clear that eating Christ’s flesh and drinking Christ’s blood is a ‘must’. However, we must note several vital points. Firstly, the context of John ch. 6 has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper — it is about Christ coming into the world and sinners finding true satisfaction in Him. Now, since the Jews found the concept of eating flesh and drinking blood especially offensive, we can be sure that if Christ had insisted that He was speaking literally, there would have been long sustained protests.
As the Jews argued among themselves saying, ‘‘How can this man give us His flesh to eat?,’’ Jesus explained what He meant in greater detail. The main verse under dispute is: ‘‘Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you’’ (John 6:53). Since eating satisfies hunger and drinking quenches thirst, the Lord had said: ‘‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes on Me shall never thirst*’’ (John 6:35). Contextually therefore, eating Christ’s flesh simply means coming to Him, and drinking Christ’s blood means believing in Him. Period. Repentant sinners ‘eat Christ’s flesh and drunk of His blood’, in a spiritual sense, at the moment of conversion.
The following quote is from Paragraph 100 in the Catholic Catechism:
"The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."
This is Paragraph 100 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church; Now, it is not saying that the Pope is the only one who does research. The Catholic Church has many scholars who study and interpret the texts of the Catholic Cannon in their original languages. It is saying that the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, and the bishops under him validate the correct view of Scripture.
The message of the Bible is clear and plain. We should not have to worry about any "secret code" which is only available to those in seminaries. Psalm 19:7 says, "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." The simple mind can understand, grow wise, and be changed by the clear teaching of Scripture.
All Believers are part of an ordained priesthood, equal in status with each other, equal in status before God. No Christian should be considered as having the corner on truth or able to overrule the conscience of another. We are accountable to Christ alone, our High Priest and Shepherd (1 Peter 2:2,3,9; Rev. 5:10).
Every Believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit to help in the discernment of what the Bible says. 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 teaches this: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church".
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved" (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the Ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's Sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739.) (Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).
To believe in papal infallibility is to believe ONLY Roman Catholics can be saved, for they alone are in submission to the Pope. It is, therefore, impossible for an informed Catholic to get saved or to stay saved if he knows of these aforementioned Roman Catholic declarations and still continues to believe in papal infallibility! This is so because salvation centers around exclusive trust in the person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ and in Him alone. In other words, all 100% of our trust for our soul's salvation MUST be in Jesus Christ alone apart from trusting in a denomination or submission to any spiritual leader, including the Pope! Since this is the Biblical message and Catholic "ex cathedra" statements contradict this, then belief in papal infallibility must be rejected for the sake of salvation! In fact, the three ex cathedra declarations just cited are clearly "another gospel" (Gal. 1:8,9).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
