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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:05 pm
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Rednal ArchAngel Nikolai The only issues you seem to have is Not In the catholic faith, Its the wrong doings of People, and society. Every one Sins, Everyone is susceptible to corruption. The Catholics have more baggage because we have been around Longer that any other christian denomination. Corruption of man does not make the faith itself wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're arguing that the Catholic faith is correct, but that humans are corrupted. However, it's humans who interpret the Bible and determine church doctrine... so, presumably, human interpretations can be corrupted as well. Unless the Catholic faith has never, ever changed positions on a single issue, I think it's important to establish the possibility of being incorrect. That's not to say that any particular belief is or is not, but that each simply may be wrong. Well-intentioned, and the best efforts of wise and thoughtful people over a period of time, but possibly wrong. Would you agree? And if not, can you elaborate on why it is that you feel Catholics are unable to ever be wrong? For myself, the only non-Jesus humans I believe to be infallible are prophets delivering a message from God. I don't believe that any religious leader or religious institution is free from being wrong, because that would kind of negate the entire purpose of existence.
As stated Im Orthodox, I don't believe in everything the church says, Im defending the traditions, the Sacraments, the beliefs. I believe that the Bible was assembled by the council by God. Im stating that if you hold hatred for the Catholic faith because of the corruption of man, Then your wrong. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:10 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo. the same way that makes your opinion and interpretation better then 2000 years of Belief. Its said Many times in the Bible that there is One church, If it was Gods will the Nicene council put together the bible, Then it is also Gods will that they pass on their traditions and beliefs and their interpretation of the bible. The catholics put it together, If your in the mind set that they Interpretate it wrong, Who's to say they choose the wrong books to include in it. God is. That's the issue. Do you really think they did something God didn't allow? Also, if it was God's will that their traditions be passed down, why do so many of them violate the Bible? Is the Holy Spirit a liar? Did God contradict Himself? Ok name one Official catholic Tradition or belief that violates the bible?
Purgatory
Forced celibacy of the priests
Calling priests "father."
Calling pope "holy father"
Mary being a perpetual Virgin
Mary being without sin until the birth of Jesus
Confession to priests
Priests absolving sins
Penance.
Praying to the saints.
Praying to Mary (note: didn't say worship)
I'll stop there for now.
Quote: You can say that about any denomination, Not just catholics. Just because people are Corrupt, doesn't mean the faith is. I didn't say "Or", Baptism or belief in christ is the universal definition of christianity. The Catholic Church Baptizes and believes. The One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin as stated in the creed is the baptism of our lord Jesus Christ. The Catholic church has more baggage because its been around longer, but there is plenty of heresy in every other denomination.
Yeah, but this isn't a topic called "Why VKFox believes that most contemporary evangelicals aren't Christians."
Baptism to the Catholic church is what, exactly? How is it performed, and how does that fit in with the true definition of baptism and how it was historically practiced before the Catholics decided that sprinkling a sick man was good enough? Oh, I'll add infant baptism to my list because I forgot. It's late over here.
I don't think you understand what the word or means. It means that you have two, maybe more options, and that any one of them is acceptable. It could also mean that there is a question with multiple answers. Example - Would you like cherry pie, or apple pie (cherry). You don't get "baptism or belief in Jesus." It doesn't work that way, as the Bible is clear. You need both. You must believe and you must be baptized. You must walk in faith. you must produce good fruit (works). It's called love, repentance, and obedience.
I'm not arguing other denominations unless you want me to. Really, Methodists? You want to make a person swear allegiance to the United Methodist Church during a baptism? But this isn't the place for that. You're more than welcome to open a thread on that if you'd like. Fact is, "The Protestants do it" doesn't clear the Catholic church of being guilty of gross heresy and deviation from the ways God decided a church should be in His word.
Here's why I hate the Catholic church. (Not the people, God bless. I love them and would love to see them come to Christ as they ought). I can't stand to see what they've done to my Lord's word. I hate their false conversions. I hate how they make a man think he is saved. I fear nothing more that finding myself before my Lord, my Jesus, and hearing Him say "You tried to seek me, you read my word, but because of you, Hell is a little bit bigger." I hate how they take praise away from my Father by giving it to saints and to Mary. They mock what my God has done, and I won't put up with it. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:10 pm
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:00 pm
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VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox ArchAngel Nikolai Rednal *Sips tea* I am trying so hard to resist being snarky here. XD Of course, that's kind of my normal personality, so yeah. There's a lot I CAN respond to here, but... To keep it simple... *Rubs chin* What is it that makes the Catholic interpretation inherently correct over any other possible interpretation, including when something may (or may not) mean more than one thing? See also: Galileo. the same way that makes your opinion and interpretation better then 2000 years of Belief. Its said Many times in the Bible that there is One church, If it was Gods will the Nicene council put together the bible, Then it is also Gods will that they pass on their traditions and beliefs and their interpretation of the bible. The catholics put it together, If your in the mind set that they Interpretate it wrong, Who's to say they choose the wrong books to include in it. God is. That's the issue. Do you really think they did something God didn't allow? Also, if it was God's will that their traditions be passed down, why do so many of them violate the Bible? Is the Holy Spirit a liar? Did God contradict Himself? Ok name one Official catholic Tradition or belief that violates the bible? Purgatory Forced celibacy of the priests Calling priests "father." Calling pope "holy father" Mary being a perpetual Virgin Mary being without sin until the birth of Jesus Confession to priests Priests absolving sins Penance. Praying to the saints. Praying to Mary (note: didn't say worship) I'll stop there for now. Quote: You can say that about any denomination, Not just catholics. Just because people are Corrupt, doesn't mean the faith is. I didn't say "Or", Baptism or belief in christ is the universal definition of christianity. The Catholic Church Baptizes and believes. The One Baptism for the forgiveness of sin as stated in the creed is the baptism of our lord Jesus Christ. The Catholic church has more baggage because its been around longer, but there is plenty of heresy in every other denomination. Yeah, but this isn't a topic called "Why VKFox believes that most contemporary evangelicals aren't Christians." Baptism to the Catholic church is what, exactly? How is it performed, and how does that fit in with the true definition of baptism and how it was historically practiced before the Catholics decided that sprinkling a sick man was good enough? Oh, I'll add infant baptism to my list because I forgot. It's late over here. I don't think you understand what the word or means. It means that you have two, maybe more options, and that any one of them is acceptable. It could also mean that there is a question with multiple answers. Example - Would you like cherry pie, or apple pie (cherry). You don't get "baptism or belief in Jesus." It doesn't work that way, as the Bible is clear. You need both. You must believe and you must be baptized. You must walk in faith. you must produce good fruit (works). It's called love, repentance, and obedience. I'm not arguing other denominations unless you want me to. Really, Methodists? You want to make a person swear allegiance to the United Methodist Church during a baptism? But this isn't the place for that. You're more than welcome to open a thread on that if you'd like. Fact is, "The Protestants do it" doesn't clear the Catholic church of being guilty of gross heresy and deviation from the ways God decided a church should be in His word.
You ask a friend to pray for you, and they do is that wrong? Whats wrong with asking some who's already in heaven to pray for you?
Priest Follow the path of the apostles. The apostles left their lives, their families, their wives to follow Jesus christ. The priests do the same.
Confession came along in the medieval era if I recall correctly. At every mass the priest asks the congregation to reflect on their sins and as a congregation we ask forgiveness. The concept of confession Isn't bad, Its to get all our wrong doings off our chest so our hearts are free from sin when we receive the body and blood of christ.
Purgatory is a word used to define a place described in the bible.
1 peter 3:18-20
18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Its a place other then hell thats mentioned in both the new and old testament. The word purgatory is just used to refer to it.
Calling priests father. We all know the quote "call no man father."
First, as we’ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."
The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:2 cool ; and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their g.asping after marks of status and prestige.
Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).
Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:2 cool . The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).
But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19]. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:03 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:04 pm
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You know, I wrote out an entire line by line response and Gaia deleted it when I posted it because apparently I wasn't logged on. Forgive me if I seem short, because I already did this.
ArchAngel Nikolai You ask a friend to pray for you, and they do is that wrong? Whats wrong with asking some who's already in heaven to pray for you?
What's wrong is that you don't know they're in Heaven. Secondly, the Bible is clear about people who speak with the dead.
9 “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
We aren't allowed to do it. It's dangerously close to necromancy. God forbids it.
Second, we have the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf with "groanings too deep for words." (Romans 8:2 cool . God, the Holy Spirit, loves us so much that He advocates for us with such anguish that it can't even put into words. Do your saints do that? Do they stand before the Father and weep for you? Because my God does. Nowhere in the Bible do I see a man weeping before God on my behalf, and those saints are men just like you and me. I have God looking out for me. I don't need your saints.
In Isaiah the prophet says " Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?" Clearly, the answer is no.
Quote: Priest Follow the path of the apostles. The apostles left their lives, their families, their wives to follow Jesus christ. The priests do the same.
Here's something the Catholic church would have it's followers forget. Peter had a wife, and it's documented in the gospel of Matthew and Mark. He had throughout his entire discipleship, and it's fairly safe to say that he didn't divorce her during his apostleship as the only biblically approved excuse for divorce is adultery.
They are over stepping their authority by a great deal when they legislate that priests cannot be married. If there's one thing that got prophets in trouble time and time again in the OT is that they said "thus sayeth the Lord" when the Lord did not sayeth. Yes, you can give up having a wife and all that for God. It's honorable, it's noble, and it's a pretty good sacrifice to offer up to God. Abstinence from whatever, be it sex or your favorite type of pie, can be offered up to God. I don't drink, and I do it for God. I don't feel that a man who wants to be a minister should be drinking, so I don't. However, that doesn't mean it's wrong to drink. It's the same with celibacy, and they are wrong for forcing it.
Quote: Confession came along in the medieval era if I recall correctly. At every mass the priest asks the congregation to reflect on their sins and as a congregation we ask forgiveness. The concept of confession Isn't bad, Its to get all our wrong doings off our chest so our hearts are free from sin when we receive the body and blood of christ.
Confessing to a priest doesn't absolve you of sins. Only Jesus has that power. No man alive has the ability to forgive sins. It's good to confess, sure, but it doesn't make me righteous. It doesn't wash away my sins. It doesn't budge them one tiny bit. Only the blood of Christ can do that.
Quote: Purgatory is a word used to define a place described in the bible. 1 peter 3:18-20 18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Maccabees 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. Its a place other then hell thats mentioned in both the new and old testament. The word purgatory is just used to refer to it.
You know, I own many different versions of the Bible in at least four different languages and I'm fluent in two of them. I was only able to find it in the NIV, which is strange to me because I figured of all of them it would be in La Santa Biblia, considering the relation Spanish speaking people generally have with the Catholic church. It says a lot when a passage is only in what's a fairly liberal translation, and not in the more reliable ones. However, I'll entertain this.
The book of Revelations, and different books as well, lead me to believe that there is indeed another place besides Earth, Heaven, and Hell. I don't think many people will dispute that. I'll even call it a prison, though I could be swayed if they could provide enough biblical evidence that the saved go there before Judgement Day too. Whatever, there's a fourth place.
Here's what it is not. It is not a place where people are purified of their sins. After all, it is appointed for man to die once, and then comes judgement. At best, it's a place where souls wait until they are judged on Judgement Day (English is a terribly bland language sometimes) Imagine what it would mean if there was a second chance place after death. Nobody would go to Hell. Jesus would have wasted His entire earthly life. All He struggled for becomes meaningless. After all, why would any of us have to serve in this life if we can get in on the next via Purgatory? Doesn't the scriptures say "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God?" or "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the spirit of Grace?" That's what Purgatory does. It regards the blood as unclean, insufficient, and lacking.
Also, I'm a conservative protestant from a very small denomination. The Apocrypha won't get far with me. You know why, I know why, and it's not simple Catholic hate here. Let's just move on for the time being, alright?
Quote: Calling priests father. We all know the quote "call no man father."
Sure, though I'd like you to keep relevant information in your posts. The whole part about teacher seeming to be forbidden doesn't hold much bearing. You can't say "Well, they did this there, so this here is ok." I could kill somebody in war and get a medal but do it in a diner in Texas and boy am I in a world of hurt. (Exaggeration, sure, but effective all the same. )
I want to show you the verse that deals with this. I'm sure a great deal of Catholics haven't seen it, but it's important.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matthew 23:9
On earth. That's the key phrase here. They're dead and no longer part of this earth. So they call them fathers for whatever reason. However, note that they do not use that phrase in reference to anybody still living on this earth.
Also, the Bible never ever says anything about not calling someone your child or behaving as a father figure. It just reserves that title for our great Father in Heaven. My dad left when I was three and some months, but you know what? I don't need him, 'cause I've got my Father up there looking after me. Any and all human figures are so shallow next to His love that it mirrors how our love for Him ought to be. We ought to love Him so much that even our love for our family (who we will generally love) ought to seem to be hate."Man, Bob, has a great wife, but he is always on about this Jesus business. I wonder how she puts up with it. He's never at home, he's always doing some Jesus stuff." See what I mean? My Father in Heaven is so great that my dad on earth is small and insignificant. God meets my needs completely.
Now let's address the Immaculate Conception.
Grace doesn't mean free from sin by any stretch of the imagination. Here is what it does mean. Dictionary.com.
grace [greys] noun, verb, graced, grac·ing.
noun
1.
elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action: We watched her skate with effortless grace across the ice. Synonyms: attractiveness, charm, gracefulness, comeliness, ease, lissomeness, fluidity. Antonyms: stiffness, ugliness, awkwardness, clumsiness; klutziness.
2.
a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment: He lacked the manly graces.
3.
favor or goodwill. Synonyms: kindness, kindliness, love, benignity; condescension.
4.
a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school. Synonyms: forgiveness, charity, mercifulness. Antonyms: animosity, enmity, disfavor.
5.
mercy; clemency; pardon: He was saved by an act of grace from the governor. Synonyms: lenity, leniency, reprieve. Antonyms: harshness.
Not a single thing there means free from sin, being without sin, or anything like that. It does mean that you get something you don't deserve, such as salvation or God's love. It does mean that God lets me continue breathing as much I deserve to drop dead right this very minute. God's grace keeps my atheist grandfather alive through his cancer, even though he spends quite a bit of effort mocking God.
I even went through Strong's Concordance on grace, and it doesn't mean free from sin or even suggest it. It does say a lot about being in good standing, and clearly Mary was. I'm not arguing that Mary is awesome, but she's not perfect. I can even show you scripture that says she isn't. In fact, it says that everybody fails to meet God's standard. Here it is.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
See that? All. Everyone. Even Mary have fallen short. That's the beauty of Jesus. He takes me out of my filth and makes me something decent. I'm 100%, completely and totally dependent on Him for everything, and so was Mary.
Let's imagine what it would mean if Mary was without sin. The first HUGE thing it means is that man doesn't need a savior to be without sin. After all, if a teenager can get away without sinning, then you and I can too. We wouldn't need Jesus to fix what sin does. We'd be able to beat sin every single time just because we want to. And, most terribly of all, it would mean that we are, every time we sin, choosing to consciously spit in the face of the Father. (There's a lot of truth to that anyway. I know I've done it.)
I really, really dislike the Apocrypha, but I'll address Wisdom in this case. Wisdom can't dwell "in a body under debt of sin?" Let's examine Solomon. Great, wise, powerful king. Gets depressed and tries every physical pleasure he can get his hands on. He sins mightily, learns his lesson, and we get Ecclesiastes out of it. The Bible says that he was the wisest man to ever live, and he still sinned. If wisdom will not dwell in a sinful body, then Solomon was not wise and God lies about him. It's that simple.
The prophecy refers to Jesus. He is God's Holy One. He did not suffer decay because He was resurrected three days later and then ascended to the Father's right hand. (Amen). Mary was not resurrected. She died, she was buried and she awaits the resurrection, along with the rest of the dead. You could even see her bones if early Christians had had enough time to keep track of things like that.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:20 pm
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VK Fox What's wrong is that you don't know they're in Heaven. Secondly, the Bible is clear about people who speak with the dead. 9 “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, 14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this. Deuteronomy 18:9-14 We aren't allowed to do it. It's dangerously close to necromancy. God forbids it. Second, we have the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf with "groanings too deep for words." (Romans 8:2 cool . God, the Holy Spirit, loves us so much that He advocates for us with such anguish that it can't even put into words. Do your saints do that? Do they stand before the Father and weep for you? Because my God does. Nowhere in the Bible do I see a man weeping before God on my behalf, and those saints are men just like you and me. I have God looking out for me. I don't need your saints. In Isaiah the prophet says " Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?" Clearly, the answer is no.
Doesn't jesus himself meet with Moses and Elijah? Your interpretation of that is a bit rash.
What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.
Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now."
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5: cool .
We'll go one section at a time |
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:36 pm
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VK Fox Here's something the Catholic church would have it's followers forget. Peter had a wife, and it's documented in the gospel of Matthew and Mark. He had throughout his entire discipleship, and it's fairly safe to say that he didn't divorce her during his apostleship as the only biblically approved excuse for divorce is adultery. They are over stepping their authority by a great deal when they legislate that priests cannot be married. If there's one thing that got prophets in trouble time and time again in the OT is that they said "thus sayeth the Lord" when the Lord did not sayeth. Yes, you can give up having a wife and all that for God. It's honorable, it's noble, and it's a pretty good sacrifice to offer up to God. Abstinence from whatever, be it sex or your favorite type of pie, can be offered up to God. I don't drink, and I do it for God. I don't feel that a man who wants to be a minister should be drinking, so I don't. However, that doesn't mean it's wrong to drink. It's the same with celibacy, and they are wrong for forcing it.
Deacons can be married before becoming a deacon. The Priest and Nuns Marry Jesus. That is the vow they take, They devote their entire lives to him. How can a nun devote her entire life to Jesus and another man? Every person has a calling. The married Life, The single Life and The Ordained life (marriage to God)
These Fundamentalists are often surprised to learn that even today celibacy is not the rule for all Catholic priests. In fact, for Eastern Rite Catholics, married priests are the norm, just as they are for Orthodox and Oriental Christians.
Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried.
The tradition in the Western or Latin-Rite Church has been for priests as well as bishops to take vows of celibacy, a rule that has been firmly in place since the early Middle Ages. Even today, though, exceptions are made. For example, there are married Latin-Rite priests who are converts from Lutheranism and Episcopalianism.
As these variations and exceptions indicate, priestly celibacy is not an unchangeable dogma but a disciplinary rule. The fact that Peter was married is no more contrary to the Catholic faith than the fact that the pastor of the nearest Maronite Catholic church is married.
o far from "commanding" marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (7:8-9).
It is only because of this "temptation to immorality" (7:2) that Paul gives the teaching about each man and woman having a spouse and giving each other their "conjugal rights" (7:3); he specifically clarifies, "I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another" (7:6-7, emphasis added).
Paul even goes on to make a case for preferring celibacy to marriage: "Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34).
Paul’s conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:3 cool .
Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, "better" than marriage. After Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, "If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesus’ teaching on the value of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom":
"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
Some because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
elibacy is an eschatological sign to the Church, a living-out in the present of the universal celibacy of heaven: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).
Now you don't have to agree, But I think theres enough there to have you understand why we do it that way. There are exceptions to the rule. |
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:42 pm
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VK Fox Confessing to a priest doesn't absolve you of sins. Only Jesus has that power. No man alive has the ability to forgive sins. It's good to confess, sure, but it doesn't make me righteous. It doesn't wash away my sins. It doesn't budge them one tiny bit. Only the blood of Christ can do that.
Have you been through a catholic confession?
This is what You pray...
My God,
I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
In choosing to do wrong
And failing to do good,
I have sinned against you
whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help,
to do penance,
to sin no more,
and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
Amen.
Your telling GOD, not the priest that you are sorry and that you'll do what you can to make up for your wrong doings. The priest, Like any pastor is a religious teacher and you go to them for advice. You tell them what you did wrong and they suggest you take some time and say some prayers, or to go do a few good deeds. If your sorry for your sins whats the harm in taking the time to say some prayers and be with God, or doing a good deed? |
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:00 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:07 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge.
I do not mean to get into an argument with you or anyone else, I merely mean to let you know there are protestants like myself, even baptist protestants, who do not condemn the Catholic Church as a false Church. Some are even inclined to defend the Catholics right as a true Christian Church. : o I do not agree with all the Catholics teachings but nor would I condemn them as Heresy. For Catholics, just as Protestants, believe that the Grace of God is the only way towards Salvation as the Catholic St's have taught.
"Whoever denies that we ought to say the prayer "Lead us not into temptation" (and they deny it who maintain that the help of God's grace is not necessary to man for salvation, but that the gift of the law is enough for the human will) out without doubt to be removed beyond all hearing, and to be anathematized by the tongues of all." - Augustine of Hippo
They also believe, as Athanasius reminds in On the Incarnation, that "Salvation is through the sacrifice of Christ, like the light of the sun makes clear what the shadows have hidden, so does the death of Christ clear the shadows from us" and as Thomas Aquinas reminds that "if there be any way other than grace that man can be saved, then the death of Christ is in vain."
They do not teach falsely on the nature of salvation nor do they teach falsely on the nature of God, attesting fully to the triune nature of God (especially by Athanasius against Arius) and His Sovereignty.
If one does not teach falsely on the Nature of Salvation and the Nature of God, then how could one condemn it as a heresy? Not all false teaching is Heresy. (though I cannot deny that false teaching should be preached against where ever it is found as Paul tells us.)
I would also like to note that I agree fully with your original statement that "We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. " |
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:10 am
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Rsnbl Faith ArchAngel Nikolai Im not here trying to say Im better then you, Im trying to clear some things up. We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. The Bible you use to pull quotes to bash the Church was put together by Councils of Catholic leaders. It doesn't matter If its King James or New American Standard Its Derived from the Books the catholics put together. By the Council of Nicaea in 325, the orthodox New Testament was more or less agreed upon, but the Eastern Churches (the future Eastern Orthodox Churches) gradually developed a different canon from that adopted by the Western Church (later the Roman Catholic Church). I Was baptized and Confirmed into the Eastern Orthodox but I attend Roman Catholic mass as well. Im not here to convert you, but If you have an issue with the way catholic are feel free to share and Ill clear the water. I find most of the hatred towards the Church is based on False or Lack knowledge. I do not mean to get into an argument with you or anyone else, I merely mean to let you know there are protestants like myself, even baptist protestants, who do not condemn the Catholic Church as a false Church. Some are even inclined to defend the Catholics right as a true Christian Church. : o I do not agree with all the Catholics teachings but nor would I condemn them as Heresy. For Catholics, just as Protestants, believe that the Grace of God is the only way towards Salvation as the Catholic St's have taught. "Whoever denies that we ought to say the prayer "Lead us not into temptation" (and they deny it who maintain that the help of God's grace is not necessary to man for salvation, but that the gift of the law is enough for the human will) out without doubt to be removed beyond all hearing, and to be anathematized by the tongues of all." - Augustine of Hippo They also believe, as Athanasius reminds in On the Incarnation, that "Salvation is through the sacrifice of Christ, like the light of the sun makes clear what the shadows have hidden, so does the death of Christ clear the shadows from us" and as Thomas Aquinas reminds that "if there be any way other than grace that man can be saved, then the death of Christ is in vain."They do not teach falsely on the nature of salvation nor do they teach falsely on the nature of God, attesting fully to the triune nature of God (especially by Athanasius against Arius) and His Sovereignty. If one does not teach falsely on the Nature of Salvation and the Nature of God, then how could one condemn it as a heresy? Not all false teaching is Heresy. (though I cannot deny that false teaching should be preached against where ever it is found as Paul tells us.) I would also like to note that I agree fully with your original statement that "We are all brothers and sisters in christ, we should be united in the world not hating each other. "
Thank you for posting. I hope I didn't make it sounds like all protestants hate catholics, but there are some out there who I believe don't understand the faith. I had a roommate in college, Was a southern baptism, turned non-denomenational. We discussed matters of faith all the time on a United front, but he always asked me questions about Catholics because he was brought up to think that what we did was wrong. But he did not know anything about us.
I am glad you agree that we should be united under christ.
"And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matt 12:25
Im not Roman catholic, I know they did some not nice things but Ill defend the faith. |
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:26 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:13 pm
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ArchAngel Nikolai VK Fox Confessing to a priest doesn't absolve you of sins. Only Jesus has that power. No man alive has the ability to forgive sins. It's good to confess, sure, but it doesn't make me righteous. It doesn't wash away my sins. It doesn't budge them one tiny bit. Only the blood of Christ can do that. Have you been through a catholic confession? This is what You pray... My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong And failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Amen. Your telling GOD, not the priest that you are sorry and that you'll do what you can to make up for your wrong doings. The priest, Like any pastor is a religious teacher and you go to them for advice. You tell them what you did wrong and they suggest you take some time and say some prayers, or to go do a few good deeds. If your sorry for your sins whats the harm in taking the time to say some prayers and be with God, or doing a good deed?
Honestly, I have not. That does not mean that I have not studied about it, or studied forgiveness in the Bible. Allow me to quote an excerpt from something I found that a priest would respond with. Yes, it's only a part, but still.
"And I absolve you of your sins,
in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
Like I've said time and time again in my discussion with you and others, the priest does not have the authority to do that. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses of sins. That's it, period dot.
There's nothing wrong with prayers, time with God, or good deeds. The problem is when it is assumed that your good deeds are good enough to excuse the sin (penance, Purgatory) or that you have anything to offer that's of value to God. As Isaiah says, all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Filthy rags would be better translated as "menstrual rags." That's all anything you attempt to do outside of the blood of Jesus amounts to. No tradition of man will change that.
Quote: Deacons can be married before becoming a deacon. The Priest and Nuns Marry Jesus. That is the vow they take, They devote their entire lives to him. How can a nun devote her entire life to Jesus and another man? Every person has a calling. The married Life, The single Life and The Ordained life (marriage to God)
It is accomplished like this. The relationship my wife and I have mirrors that between Christ and His church. Just as Christ sacrificed Himself for the church, so do I sacrifice myself for my wife. So as the church submits to Christ, so does my wife submit to me. I take spiritual charge of the family. If I am faithful, my wife is, my kids will be, and everyone looking in at us will either think we're crazy or wonder how they can get some of whatever it is we have.
Also, nuns marrying Jesus? Scriptures tell us that the church is the bridegroom, and that spiritual leaders (deacons, bishops) are to be husband to one wife. I'd like to see where that tradition originated from, if you'd be so kind. I haven't seen it in my Bible.
Quote: These Fundamentalists are often surprised to learn that even today celibacy is not the rule for all Catholic priests. In fact, for Eastern Rite Catholics, married priests are the norm, just as they are for Orthodox and Oriental Christians.
These fundamentalists? You can be open with me. I promise to offend you back. I'm super conservative, I'd make my wife wear a head cover if she didn't have long hair, I believe in healing, all that good stuff.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, we're talking about the western part of the church. We can get into eastern in a different thread if you want. I'm down for whatever, whenever, could be singing about pancake batter (I'm very, very sorry for that joke).
Quote: Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried.
In response:
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach
1 Timothy 3:2
Otherwise, we're discussing Rome here.
Quote: The tradition in the Western or Latin-Rite Church has been for priests as well as bishops to take vows of celibacy, a rule that has been firmly in place since the early Middle Ages. Even today, though, exceptions are made. For example, there are married Latin-Rite priests who are converts from Lutheranism and Episcopalianism.
Why did that change? Why did they suddenly decide that they could make rules that go very clearly against what the Bible teaches? In fact, here is a passage pointing out that banning marriage is nothing short of doctrine from demons.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
Not to mention that is also says that God made marriage as something to be received with joy! The fact that they would dare forbid something God made to be wonderful blows my mind.
Quote: As these variations and exceptions indicate, priestly celibacy is not an unchangeable dogma but a disciplinary rule. The fact that Peter was married is no more contrary to the Catholic faith than the fact that the pastor of the nearest Maronite Catholic church is married.
I think it's funny that they think they know better than a man they believe was the foundation upon which Christ would build His church. (At least, they use that verse to support the idea of him as pope.) I mean, this guy was hand picked by Jesus, right? Maybe he knew what he was doing.
Quote: As these variations and exceptions indicate, priestly celibacy is not an unchangeable dogma but a disciplinary rule. The fact that Peter was married is no more contrary to the Catholic faith than the fact that the pastor of the nearest Maronite Catholic church is married. o far from "commanding" marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (7:8-9). It is only because of this "temptation to immorality" (7:2) that Paul gives the teaching about each man and woman having a spouse and giving each other their "conjugal rights" (7:3); he specifically clarifies, "I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another" (7:6-7, emphasis added). Paul even goes on to make a case for preferring celibacy to marriage: "Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34). Paul’s conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:3.
Yeah, but you forgot verse six of that chapter.
I say this as a concession, not as a command.
None of that is actually a command. Sure, it's better to be that way and he makes a really good argument for it but it isn't a command at all. It's just him musing about how things could be, but clearly can't be.
Quote: Some because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
Good for them, but the Catholics are still wrong for mandating celibacy.
Quote: Now you don't have to agree, But I think theres enough there to have you understand why we do it that way. There are exceptions to the rule.
Except it's a rule that they made up themselves!
Out of order, I know, I'm bad.
Quote: Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now."
Your mother in this case isn't dead and whether or not she's in heaven isn't in question. I have a friend who killed herself. You know what the facebook page they made for her looks like? Them praying to her instead of God. Almost every line. However, that's not super relevant.
Maybe I was a little far in comparing it to necromancy, but you still cannot deny the lack of Biblical evidence that they hear us up there, or why it is that dead humans make a better advocate for me that the Holy Spirit Himself.
Quote: The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
That first verse certainly does not tell us to ask people in Heaven to pray for us in any way. It just tells angels to bless God, and all His other servants as well. Nothing there about patron saints, canonification, or any of that.
The second verse just tells people to praise God, and again not a word there about the saints being used as mediators between us and God.
Quote: Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
Again, scripture that has literally nothing to do with you and I asking saints to go to God on our behalf. It also does not explain why I should bother with praying to the dead when I can just pray to God directly and have the Holy Spirit intercede on my behalf. Basically - Why bother with them at all? That's like using a hand grenade when you have MOAB.
Subliminal Aftermath  We all believe in the same guy... Cant we all just get along? :p
Did you bother to read the thread before you said that? Because plenty of points have been raised as to why we can't just "Get along" |
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:43 pm
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Again Im not going to sit here and convert you. Am I safe to assume you don't eat pork as well? The bible Calls for One church, One teaching. Maybe times it refers to a house divided will fall. The scriptures was past down orally for so many years before written, and they are always making tweaks to the hundred of different translations. On top of that any scripture I post You'll take it in a completely different way. Which is fine, Ill stick to the translations of the guys that put the books together in the first place. All I ask is for you to quit the "Oh their not christians" Because jesus did not come to earth to judge.
John 3: 17-18
"For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
As catholics we Profess our faith in Jesus Christ and we have been doing it longer then anyone. Jesus also said those without sin cast the first stone. Jesus himself did not come to condemn us, By what heavenly right is it of yours to Say Which Faith is christian or not. You are my brother in Christ, Whether you think I'am christian or not. If you wont open your mind, Open your heart, we are in it together. "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." |
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