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Jafthasleftthebuilding
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:01 pm


From a scholarly perspective, it does matter and I would like to know how the child develops. It's important when studying early child development. Maybe it could be seen as a better way to raise children and then all the parents in the world can join in or maybe the reverse would be proved true and maybe it's not so great or possibly the results aren't even conclusive. Hopefully, that clears that up.

No, humans are curious by nature, the more so with children. We may hide the words from them, but they'll just use ding-dong or wazoo or whatever. You cannot stop them from being curious or trying to learn about each other. You cannot change human curiosity. (Well, unless you try to go Brave New World/1984 on the children.)

Based on my personal experience, urinals are safer. You are standing, you are not making contact with the urine catching device, reducing contact with bacteria, your male genitals will not accidentally touch the toilet seat, especially if you have an erection, you don't have to sit down on the toilet seat. You can also reduce splatter by using urinals, I have developed the techniques for it, it can be done. When you pee into a toilet, it's as if someone is doing a cannonball over and over again into the toilet bowl. When someone doesn't flush a urinal, it's not a big deal. When someone does not flush a toilet, I'd be scared, offended, and grossed out. Urinals can have urinals cakes. Toilets are just there to swallow the nastiness. It's not just a matter of opinion, but observation too. And even if people splattered on the floor, you have shoes to protect your feet. When people splatter or destroy the toilet, you can see where I'm going with this... From what I observed, males seem to have trouble flushing toilets, making the task of reaching the handle emotionally upsetting, if a man in that position can do it at all. In that situation, I had to ninja kick the flush handle.

Unless my biology is all messed up, boys have more testosterone, we can stack up muscle, we're more aggressive, we tend to solve things with our bodies, there will be differences just because of our biological make up. Why would it be deemed sexist to raise my child in this way? Not to be overly aggressive, but physically strong or however I choose. And what I define as manly may not, and will most likely not, be the same for everyone in the world. I'll teach my daughter to use pads, especially if she's the forgetful type. Girls will tend not to pack on so much muscle. I base that on my observations. Also women give birth, men just fertilize the egg. And I'm just talking about humans. I assume you were not using sexist in a complimenting manner. I'm not actually even sure what kind of sexist you're calling me.

There is such a thing as too much body hair. And yes, it's nice to be hairless and I base that statement based on my personal experience with hair. Try having a beard, in the hot summer. It's not nice, especially if it's just starting to grow out. I've tried the bald look, and it's very convenient and makes my head feel lighter. Maybe you don't need to shave, just trim, looking neat is great for making first impressions. Now being hairy in the winter is a different matter.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:22 pm


There's that, and with my nervous habit, if I still had by beard, there would be bald patches where you can tell I've picked at.

Jaft actually makes sense to my little brain

Arcanas

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Kalstolyn

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:40 pm


Kals is questing again!

I think it's possible to allow a child's gender identity to unfold naturally without resorting to such extreme and possibly traumatizing methods as hiding his or her sex. Boy want to play barbies? Good on em! Girls want tonka trucks and legos? Go for it! Boys want to take dance lessons or figure skating? Good for the boys for finding something to be passionate about. Girls want to play hockey or baseball? Hooray for living an active lifestyle! I don't think that's strange or subversive or anything.

As for body hair, shaving is gross and difficult and he only part of myself that I actually enjoy having bald is my head. The rest of me needs my fur in order to keep warm in winter, and to repel the guys who think fat chicks are desperate enough to do anything...

Check sig for details!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:45 pm


Kalstolyn
Kals is questing again!

I think it's possible to allow a child's gender identity to unfold naturally without resorting to such extreme and possibly traumatizing methods as hiding his or her sex. Boy want to play barbies? Good on em! Girls want tonka trucks and legos? Go for it! Boys want to take dance lessons or figure skating? Good for the boys for finding something to be passionate about. Girls want to play hockey or baseball? Hooray for living an active lifestyle! I don't think that's strange or subversive or anything.

As for body hair, shaving is gross and difficult and he only part of myself that I actually enjoy having bald is my head. The rest of me needs my fur in order to keep warm in winter, and to repel the guys who think fat chicks are desperate enough to do anything...

Check sig for details!
I tell you what though, after watching Dancing with the Stars, and seeing how gorgeous some of those dancing instructors are, I wouldn't blame them...

Arcanas

Hunter


Jafthasleftthebuilding
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:46 pm


Kals, what about the guys who love a little friction? ;D
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:49 am


I think this is a very interesting way to raise a child. I'm not sure how it'll work out, though I hope it's for the best.

The study about David/Brenda that was referenced is a very disturbing case. But I think it's a fairly natural reaction, his rebellion and eventual suicide, I mean; having been lied to by his parents his entire life about his biological sex is a very disturbing thing to find out. It distorts your perception of the world, having been raised as something you're undeniably not. I think I'd freak out if I found out I was actually a boy and my p***s had been chopped off by accident, and I was chosen to become a girl, possibly since it's so much easier to surgically create a v****a as opposed to a p***s.

These two occurrences are very different though; no physical change is happening to Pop, and there's no lying involved. I like that Pop gets to make all the decisions. Even at such an early stage, decision making is very important for the child.

As for the child's mental state in future, studies by psychologists over the years have shown that the actions and mindsets of people are determined by many factors, not just nature and nurture. Nature and nurture are influences in people's personalities, morals, etc. but in the nurture aspect, parents have far less influence than has been previously thought. Forgive me for the tangent, but I'm going to cite a study to help show my point.

In the mid-1970s there was a large project called the Colorado Adoption Project. It involved following a number of adopted children and submitting them to personality tests, along with their adoptive parents, with a control group of parents with their biological children, undergoing the same tests, going on for quite a few years (I can't remember exactly how long, unfortunately). The control group's children were fairly similar to their parents. The adoptive children were drastically different from their parents; they were as similar as random strangers pulled off the street.

Now this isn't to say that genes are the determining factor in a person's personality, but that the environment a child is raised in and how it affects them as a person doesn't depend so much on their family as their peers.

Most children get teased and made fun of and have a rotten time at school and with their peers at least once in their lifetime. It's pretty much guaranteed. Sometimes they're teased for the way they look, or act, or about their parents, siblings, the way they smell, whatever. Kids use every excuse to make fun of each other. Not knowing the sex of someone is just another thing that's different. I didn't know the sex of some people I went to school with, just because they didn't look especially masculine or feminine, and had a gender-neutral name. I went to daycamp with a hermaphrodite once. Maybe I'm an especially forgiving person or something, but I didn't think it was that big a deal. Not when I was 4, and not now.

All I'm really trying to say is that, though this could have potentially permanently scarring consequences for Pop, chances are (s)he's not going to be any more traumatized from going to school than most kids, even with the peculiar circumstances of his/her upbringing. If (s)he gets to choose when to reveal his/her sex, (s)he could find a way to hide it for a very long time if (s)he tried hard enough, or just blurt it out and be done with it. It's Pop's choice. I respect the decision of Pop's parents not wanting him/her to be constrained by societal viewpoints and expectations. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the method they've chosen, but it does seem to be very direct and open, and it'll be interesting to see the results.

Kerrigan_dragon


Trish the Stalker

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:21 am


In school we read a story called "X" where it was all about this kid who was raised using their own special bathroom at school etc. It's an interesting short story but I doubt it would work out in real life.

Removing all gender expectations from a child's development is a great idea in theory. The practice will reveal itself in time. This is different than simply raising your own child as if whatever they do is okay (Barbies for boys and Tonka trucks for girls, etc) but NO ONE can tell your child what they are doing is "right" or "wrong" and the child is left to just "be" whatever they will.

HOWEVER, since secondary sex characteristics don't develop until puberty it is safe to say the child's gender will be mostly secret until age 10 or so. After that biology will take over and what makes females female will kick in and vice versa for a male. XX and XY chromosomes do affect neural development and the way brains function when faced with a problem.

I'm excited to see how this turns out.

-Formerly La Belle Isolde-
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:42 am


confused This seems ridiculous to me. I don't see how you can expect to keep a child isolated from/unaffected by society's views and still have them be a part of said society.
It seems to me they're just making a spectacle of their child for the sake of this ...experiment/statement. And rather than being more concerned with their child's happiness, they are more focused on making a point.
I find it disturbing for people to have reactions like "I wonder how this will turn out" and "very interesting". Kids aren't lab rats. neutral

Bunch of hippie BS...I feel bad for "Pop".

Alarias

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Trish the Stalker

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:28 am


PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:22 am


That is ridicuoulos! I mean, how the hell do you plan to keep it a secret and also to let the child be a part of a society?

I totally agree with Alarias.

emmmahy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:19 am


Uhm okay I think that is odd. And I don't know that I approve of it, but I know nothing about the affects of something like this on the child's development. I hope it will have none. I'd imagine the kid will one day wonder why the heck his/her parents are so weird.

At age two kids could care less if they are boys or girls, they just want to play and be feed.

My other thought is little kids can be very mean. I imagine that not feeling the sex nature made you is awkward and prone to teasing as is, so why would you purposely made your young child decidedly peculiar. It's like giving them a ridiculous name, it stands out and gives others a foot hold for teasing.

Do they dress the child androgynously? Have they considered the kid's alienation when it gets to school?

So anyway I wish the best for that child, it's going to need.... it I can't even say he/she the poor thing is an it.... an object.... <.<
I'm sorry I don't like that.

And to agree with Ala I actually know a kid who's parents spend more time making a statement and righting the wrongs of society through their child that he is sorely neglected.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:57 am


Hmm, I can see both good and bad in the idea. I mean...yes, to be able to grow up without being labeled, stereotyped, or judged by anyone would be a wonderful thing. If people could simply dispose of their prejudice and see each other as fellow humans, it would be lovely.

However...we are all different from each other. Things like gender, race, eye-color, these are things that make us unique. I personally feel that our differences should be celebrated. Instead of trying to hide our differences for fear of being labeled, I feel that it is better to be proud of the person you are, and all of the things that you are, be it gender, sexual preference, or whatever. My fear is, that concealing the child's gender will rob the child of their gender. I'm a girl, and I'm proud to be a girl. Even though I'm frequently labeled a "tomboy" and can often be considered "one of the guys", it doesn't really matter to me how other people see me, I'm just proud of who I am. When my co-workers say "You're so weird!" I smile proudly and say, "Good, I'm glad you noticed." And I didn't need my parents to conceal my gender from me to develop my self-esteem.

Kyla_Ewens
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God-Raped-Me

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:21 am


I too dislike the idea of this. What if that's not what the child wants? Also kids aren't that stupid they're going to know "hey so this is what makes me a boy eh?" then carry on from there.

A lot of how a child develops is in HOW the parents raise the child not what they call the child. That will just confuse and possibly make the child angry. Not only that but all children try falling under the gender roles at some point, then they either decide that they like it or don't and try something else.

All in all I don't like this and I think it's incredibly selfish of the parents to do this to their kid.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:49 am


Alarias

I find it disturbing for people to have reactions like..."very interesting". Kids aren't lab rats. neutral
Just because someone finds something interesting doesn't mean it's an experiment.

Alarias

Bunch of hippie BS...I feel bad for "Pop".

It's "hippie BS" to have parents who want their child to find him/herself? I don't think so. I'd say it's hillbilly BS that some people aren't supportive and open minded about it.

LorienLlewellyn

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Jafthasleftthebuilding
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:38 am


Alarias
confused This seems ridiculous to me. I don't see how you can expect to keep a child isolated from/unaffected by society's views and still have them be a part of said society.... Kids aren't lab rats. neutral

Right, that's one of my concerns. You'd need a proper testing environment isolated from society in order to not let society's views have an impact on how the child/children develop their gender identity. Take a look at M. Night Shamalyan's The Village to see what I mean. I think that type of facility/home/living space/testing grounds would be the best. In that way you can construct a society that does not create gender expectations and then study the effects on the children.

And about the last statement, did you know if you throw a baby into the pool it will end up floating on its back so it does not drown? biggrin Well, that's what I hear since babes are born with survival instincts.

Kyla_Ewens
However...we are all different from each other. Things like gender, race, eye-color, these are things that make us unique. I personally feel that our differences should be celebrated. Instead of trying to hide our differences for fear of being labeled, I feel that it is better to be proud of the person you are, and all of the things that you are, be it gender, sexual preference, or whatever. My fear is, that concealing the child's gender will rob the child of their gender. I'm a girl, and I'm proud to be a girl. Even though I'm frequently labeled a "tomboy" and can often be considered "one of the guys", it doesn't really matter to me how other people see me, I'm just proud of who I am. When my co-workers say "You're so weird!" I smile proudly and say, "Good, I'm glad you noticed." And I didn't need my parents to conceal my gender from me to develop my self-esteem.

It is our differences that bring us together. 3nodding

LorienLlewellyn
Just because someone finds something interesting doesn't mean it's an experiment.

What these parents are doing fall under the definition of experiment, just not necessarily in the scientific sense, but it would be useful for studies and research papers.
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