People say...

[Angel of the End]

And yes, there are already threads about this, most having long been dead. This is a new human bringing it up, with new arguements, and thus it is a new issue in certain aspects. If the guild leader decides to close this thread, I'm sure none of us would have any issues with that decision.

However, it is what it is, so let us move on with it until someone of higher power decides what is to be done, be it left alone, closed down, or moved to another section of the guild.  

[Xahmen]

Angel of the End

Zahmen II

Luz Melian

I'm a Christian and goth, so obviously it doesn't apply for me.

And I thought at least people in this guild [when not the general population] are informed enough to know that the subculture was based on a musical genre and no religious affiliation whatsoever. If there's a tendency to certain beliefs among goths, I believe a lot are agnostics or atheists, but the Satanists are a rather smaller part. And of course there are also Christians and other theists too; it doesn't matter as long as you have passion for the music.

I'm just quoting an expose on the gothic subculture written by a reformed Goth. Look it up!

Dear Luz, please let me respond to this fool: A REFORMED GOTH, EH? So, this reformed "goth", who claimed himself as this, wrote a book, saying everyone else who was a "goth" is a satanist, huh, ok....
Something tells me alot of our dear pre-goth inspiritional idols would STRONGLY disagree with this statement of this ONE man.
I could say, "Hey look, guys! I'm a goth and I'm a Christian!!! We had the buildings and all that, so in order for you to be of any kind of goth or of that genre, YOU ARE ALL CHRISTIANS!!!"

and EXPOSE!!???!!!??? HELLO YOU IDIOT, SEVERAL SEVERAL GOTHS RIGHT HERE TELLING YOU THAT IS NOT RIGHT. SO, TAKE THE WORD OF SOME PERSON WHO NEVER MET WHO WROTE IT IN SOME BOOK YOU READ, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE, OR BELIEVE IN THE MAJORITY RULE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE THE LIFESTYLE, LOVE THE MUSIC, AND HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THE SCENE???

-_- Sorry for losing my temper, but dear, use common sense... please, please do not be so easily convinced and so dreadfully hard to move. Believe what you want to believe, but don't go up to a dog saying, "you're not a dog unless you bark like this".

Alot of us here and alot of the people who started the gothic movement, or atleast helped it on it's way, are living examples of what that man said was wrong. Anyone can say anything, does not mean it is true. Reguardless, a minority or one person in a culture does NOT have the same impact or credibility as SEVERAL people in a culture. Same for everyone, same about nearly everything. Be it in court, science, or even politics.

If I offended you or anyone else, I apologize. Reguardless, if you claim that on all goths, you claim that on me and a majority of us: I personally will not be told what I am, when I already know what I am. ((That goes for everyone who is a goth, or anyone in general! Be it Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Polytheist, Monotheist, Wiccan, ext.!))

Read the book for yourself, look it up, you'll see the light.  

[Angel of the End]

.......... -sigh-

I believe what I am, and I do not need anything to say different, nor will I believe anything that says different. I know myself better than anyone, and no book written from one small sector will tell me otherwise... it would be like a protestant reading the book of mormon because someone said "you'll see the light", well, obviously I know enough to make a personal judgment to disagree with it already. Except, in this case, it is an internal factor you are trying to force on all of us here. With things as mundane as a "culture" or "subculture", there are no facts, really, not after over 30 years and millions of members and thousands of variations.

One man is not many, and thus, I will not listen or even give my ear to that one, when my personal status is already set against it due to many a factor.



This is my final word on that in general.  

[Sayga Takaino]

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.  

[PetreyDish]

So lulzy.  

[Necrodancer Ghost]

DancesWithBats

So lulzy.

 

[Henneth Annun]

Angel of the End

And yes, there are already threads about this, most having long been dead. This is a new human bringing it up, with new arguements, and thus it is a new issue in certain aspects. If the guild leader decides to close this thread, I'm sure none of us would have any issues with that decision.

However, it is what it is, so let us move on with it until someone of higher power decides what is to be done, be it left alone, closed down, or moved to another section of the guild.

I'm aware that thread like this have been dead for a while, so I will allow this one to remain alive. ninja

I'm expecting it to die quickly though, since there really isn't much to discuss on this.  

[Xahmen]

The Spirit of Vengeance

DancesWithBats

So lulzy.

Absurdly lulzy  

[Xahmen]

Angel of the End

.......... -sigh-

I believe what I am, and I do not need anything to say different, nor will I believe anything that says different. I know myself better than anyone, and no book written from one small sector will tell me otherwise... it would be like a protestant reading the book of mormon because someone said "you'll see the light", well, obviously I know enough to make a personal judgment to disagree with it already. Except, in this case, it is an internal factor you are trying to force on all of us here. With things as mundane as a "culture" or "subculture", there are no facts, really, not after over 30 years and millions of members and thousands of variations.

One man is not many, and thus, I will not listen or even give my ear to that one, when my personal status is already set against it due to many a factor.



This is my final word on that in general.

Just look the book up, and cast aside your heretic ways.  

[Xahmen]

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?  

[Sayga Takaino]

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?

Which would you rather have? Numerous primary sources or one barely primary source? I think at this point you're just arguing for your own amusement. Have fun trolling  

[Xahmen]

Sayga Takaino

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?

Which would you rather have? Numerous primary sources or one barely primary source? I think at this point you're just arguing for your own amusement. Have fun trolling

I have a very credible and reliable single source, I do not need to find other books that tell me what I already know. Maybe if you gave it a gander yourself you'd see the light.
I've yet to see you offer any printed and published support for your arguments.

You people are really ******** dense, how many more times do I have to spell it out?  

[Sayga Takaino]

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?

Which would you rather have? Numerous primary sources or one barely primary source? I think at this point you're just arguing for your own amusement. Have fun trolling

I have a very credible and reliable single source, I do not need to find other books that tell me what I already know. Maybe if you gave it a gander yourself you'd see the light.
I've yet to see you offer any printed and published support for your arguments.

You people are really ******** dense, how many more times do I have to spell it out?

The best sources are usually unwritten, just because it's on paper does not mean it is of any higher credibility. I give up on you man confused  

[Xahmen]

Sayga Takaino

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?

Which would you rather have? Numerous primary sources or one barely primary source? I think at this point you're just arguing for your own amusement. Have fun trolling

I have a very credible and reliable single source, I do not need to find other books that tell me what I already know. Maybe if you gave it a gander yourself you'd see the light.
I've yet to see you offer any printed and published support for your arguments.

You people are really ******** dense, how many more times do I have to spell it out?

The best sources are usually unwritten, just because it's on paper does not mean it is of any higher credibility. I give up on you man confused

YOU EVEN QUOTED ME AND YOU DIDN'T SEE IT
I'm just asking you to argue at my level. I have an accredited author on my side, and you're appealing to something that isn't even written.  

[Sayga Takaino]

Troll AKA Zahmen II

Sayga Takaino

Troll

Sayga Takaino

Troll

Sayga Takaino

Alright, i've been out of the thread for a long time (damn you midterms). Now i have some cousins/aunts & uncles that were involved in the punk scene back in the late 70's, yea that's right. ORIGINAL PUNKS.

Now since i haven't been apart of our subculture for as long as some others may be in this guild (I've been considering myself goth for about 2 years now). I phoned my uncle in curiosity and asked if he had any goth friends back in the day (early to mid 80's which was when he was in collage). He responded by confirming this and asking if there was anything i wanted to know about them. I then asked if any of them were into satanism and he then said no way in hell. All of his goth friends were friendly respectable people.

So there you have it, NOT ALL original goths were involved in satanism. Most of them were good people who liked the music, fashion, and the scene (yes i'm talking about clubs and bars, there were already a fair amount in new york and other big cities).

So Zahmen, why idolize this one author claiming to be a "reformed goth"? He may have more experience in the subculture then others, but just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he suddenly knows all. Even outsiders like my uncle with a relation to the subculture knows what he's talking about, and you can't forget about the rest of us GOTHS here who've listened to Bela Lugosi's Undead and been to the clubs and seen others of our scene being themselves, no matter what religious pendant they wear.

Now it's time for the drive i've had for staying in this debate. I've been with my girlfriend who is in no way goth for over a year now (and love her to death) and her parents don't care about how often i sport some black nail polish or how many Cure t-shirts i own. In the beginning it wasn't like this. When we first started dating we could only see each other in school and while hanging out at friends houses because the fact they fought i worshiped satan. Her mother is a strong believer in Catholicism and even teaches sunday school. She literally thought i was the spawn of the devil or something like that and because of this, i couldn't see my love as much as i'd have like to seen her just because of one thought. After months of arguing with her parents and talking on the phone in secret with me and they finally agreed to give me a chance and let me have dinner with my girlfriend and themselves. After that night they've approved of me and thought i was a great kid, but due to the situation at hand i fell into minor a state of minor depression while the fighting was happening. Sure it was minor at that be i lost interest in things and my friends didn't know what to do. I stopped running track and sat around for a long time doing nothing. This is the kind of situation which i would hate to see anyone else in.

Sorry if i hurt any feelings but this is what i believe.

Have you written any books?
No?

Which would you rather have? Numerous primary sources or one barely primary source? I think at this point you're just arguing for your own amusement. Have fun trolling

I have a very credible and reliable single source, I do not need to find other books that tell me what I already know. Maybe if you gave it a gander yourself you'd see the light.
I've yet to see you offer any printed and published support for your arguments.

The best sources are usually unwritten, just because it's on paper does not mean it is of any higher credibility. I give up on you man confused

I'm just asking you to argue at my level. I have an accredited author on my side, and you're appealing to something that isn't even written.

Sometimes the spoken word is a higher argument then the printed one. Expecting someone to be able to source everything is something i expect to see a prep do, not a fellow goth. Man now that you're just trolling i see no point in even bothering to post back.