The Tri-religion unification

[Bezant]

divineseraph

So... if Christ is God, and God is YHWH, then Christ is YHWH.

When Christ says that he is the only way, he therefore says that YHWH is the only way.

Check and mate. Thank you for playing.

Unless you want to backpeddal and claim that Jesus is no longer God, but a part of God which is seperate... Therefore making him jsut another prophet, making you partialy muslim in that aspect.

And as for slaying the infadels- See my point on slavery. Not everything in which a holy book agrees with is right.

No...not check and mate. You cannot win, because you are not playing a game.

You are trying to grasp something with your mortal mind that is immortal, something with your imperfect mind that is perfect, something that is a "mystery."

I'm sorry for you, but you are woefully uninformed, and likely to stay that way as long as you continue in this vein.

When you begin to seek God, He will tell you what he is.

Until then, you will be convulsing in darkness. You must know this or you would not be struggling so desperately to find truth in your own logic.

Stop struggling. Ask God. Ask with a sincere and repentant heart. Ask, not because you want to win, but because you want to know.

Otherwise the "God" you cry out to will not be Jehovah. A very different god will answer you, and he will lie to you.  

[divineseraph]

Ah, so now it is not fact anymore?

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. You ask me to site sources, you say I have no proof.

I do so, I prove beyond a doubt that what I say is supported by fact.

And you return to me with this pseudo-intellectual "You know in your heart" crap?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. you only say this because I have proven my point through fact and you no longer have anything tangible to bring to the table. Before, you were all fact versus fact, quoting passages and naming other potential gods and paganistic rituals. Now that I have destroyed those misconceptions, you hide behind something I cannot argue, the idea of what exactly God is. No science can answer this, and any person who tries to answer it in a way you dislike you can simply wave off as being "Uninformed".

Tell me I wallow in darkness, as you refuse to accept your fellows. Your fellows who worship the same God. It is no different than the seperation between Catholics and Protestants. I know a Catholic who claims that Protestants worship a different God. Crazy? Insane? This is how I feel about Christianity's seperationism with Islam.

If you say that I cannot understand, that God is so impossible to understand, what makes you any more knowledgeable on the subject? Because you listen to your heart, to God?

I tried Transcendentalism, and it lead me here. To the conclusion that we are all equal in God's eyes, that we all worship the same God, and as you have seen, there is sufficient backing for this claim.  

[Bezant]

divineseraph

Ah, so now it is not fact anymore?

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. You ask me to site sources, you say I have no proof.

I do so, I prove beyond a doubt that what I say is supported by fact.

And you return to me with this pseudo-intellectual "You know in your heart" crap?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. you only say this because I have proven my point through fact and you no longer have anything tangible to bring to the table. Before, you were all fact versus fact, quoting passages and naming other potential gods and paganistic rituals. Now that I have destroyed those misconceptions, you hide behind something I cannot argue, the idea of what exactly God is. No science can answer this, and any person who tries to answer it in a way you dislike you can simply wave off as being "Uninformed".

Tell me I wallow in darkness, as you refuse to accept your fellows. Your fellows who worship the same God. It is no different than the seperation between Catholics and Protestants. I know a Catholic who claims that Protestants worship a different God. Crazy? Insane? This is how I feel about Christianity's seperationism with Islam.

If you say that I cannot understand, that God is so impossible to understand, what makes you any more knowledgeable on the subject? Because you listen to your heart, to God?

I tried Transcendentalism, and it lead me here. To the conclusion that we are all equal in God's eyes, that we all worship the same God, and as you have seen, there is sufficient backing for this claim.

Did you read any of the sources I referenced? In any of my posts in our discussions?

"Refusal to accept my fellows"...I refuse to accept evil and call it good.
I refuse to accept lies and call it truth.
Jesus Christ is our burden bearer. The most compassionate, loving, Christian and Jew-tolerating Muslim rejects Christ as the bearer of his sins. That makes the Muslim not part of the Bride of Christ, hence, not my fellow. He's still a precious soul. But he's not one of the Body.

The Lord rebuke thee. You are too thick-headed and stubborn to see anything but your own ignorance which you pass off as fact. I'm going to go back to the first answer I gave you.

If it is all one religion,
why is there fighting?
If it was all the same, exactly the same, with a benevolent God over all,
surely someone would have figured it out centuries ago.
And it would not take you to point it out. I think most people decide they are all one religion ...I know I did, years ago...before they learn better.

Dig a little deeper! Google "messianic Jews" and start reading why they have taken the step of believing in Yeshua. Also read what they say about Islam, and then read what Islam says about itself. One site to start with is here:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/
Which is pro-Muslim, and very loving...but as stated before,
if they reject Christ as the payment for all our sins,
if they take responsibility for their own sins, then they are trying to make it into heaven on their own power. And that is something no human can do.  

[divineseraph]

Why is there fighting?

It's all political bull**** DISGUISED as religious bull****.

Do you honestly believe that the crusades were for religion only?

Do you honestly believe that Al Queda hates America because we are ******** no. It is all about politics and money, worldly possessions. The Crusades were for money, cloaked with religion, and in the same way Al Queda opperates, claiming religion because it is a motivation that many people will fall behind, they use their religion as a source of control, a fulcrum to say "The Bible/Koran says to do this". Exactly how slave owners used those few passages to justify slavery in America.


And you can call me ignorant just as easily as I can call you ignorant.

And again, if Christ=God, then following God= Following Christ. Also, Muslims BELIVE IN JESUS, yet again I state this. As a very, very holy man, but not actually God. So either way... He is God, and they worship the same God, so they are set, OR, Jesus is not God and they are still set.  

[Bezant]

divineseraph

Why is there fighting?

It's all political bull**** DISGUISED as religious bull****.

Do you honestly believe that the crusades were for religion only?

Do you honestly believe that Al Queda hates America because we are Christian?

F*** no. It is all about politics and money, worldly possessions. The Crusades were for money, cloaked with religion, and in the same way Al Queda opperates, claiming religion because it is a motivation that many people will fall behind, they use their religion as a source of control, a fulcrum to say "The Bible/Koran says to do this". Exactly how slave owners used those few passages to justify slavery in America.

Your stupidity does you no credit, and your ignorance is huge. Don't assume I am saying things that I am not. It makes you look like an idiot.

I do agree that the Crusades to free Jerusalem from the Turks would not have happened if there wasn't considerable booty to be had, and I have never claimed otherwise. I also am of the opinion that if the West would stop whoring around with tolerated adultery, homosexuality, drugs, rebellion of children, immodesty and so forth, then it would gain far more credibility in the eyes of the world and show that it had the moral authority to intervene wherever great wrongs are being done.

You want to bring up slavery? Let's not forget Christianity freed the slaves. In Muslim countries, slavery continues.

divineseraph

And you can call me ignorant just as easily as I can call you ignorant.

But in your case it's true! blaugh You're evidently a dumb kid and you came here to teach your elders something. Fortunately for you, you're learning instead.

divineseraph

And again, if Christ=God, then following God= Following Christ. Also, Muslims BELIVE IN JESUS, yet again I state this. As a very, very holy man, but not actually God. So either way... He is God, and they worship the same God, so they are set, OR, Jesus is not God and they are still set.

How do you figure they are "set"?

For that matter, how dare you even argue this from your spiritually weak standpoint? You dare not appear before God on judgment day and claim that you are "set". You don't know the meaning of the word. Your errant stupidity about faith does you no credit, and you leap to conclusions far too much. You're not saved, and you are nowhere close to being saved. Even the devils fear God and can quote Scripture, but devils are not "set."
And don't even pull "ad hominem." You honestly do not know what you are talking about.

Oh, by the way, two unrelated postscripts:

P.S. There is probably a FAQ somewhere with all the corrections for what the stupid world teaches its stupid children. Among them should be this one:

STUPID WORLD TEACHES: The Bible went through many translations before being translated into English, so it's remarkably changed from the original text.

FACT: The Bible was in its original Greek and Aramaic before being translated into English. Current English versions (New Living Translation, New Century Version, New King James, etc.) are translations of the King James bible. The King James version is still being sold today. There have been slight changes in word choices to make it easier to understand, but it did not go through many translations. It went through many transcriptions before the invention of the printing press, and its original text has hardly been changed at all.

P.S.S.
Cease swearing, please. I don't like to see it and I'm sure no one else does either. It may seem normal to you but it makes you lack credibility if you swear.
Any outbursts and you will be banned.  

[divineseraph]

You know what? You call me stupid and dumb, but it is only a scare tactic. You realize you have no more power than to insult me and sling mud.

Well go ahead then, crucify me. Forgive them father, they know not what they do.

Good day to you, may your ignorance and your malice and your spite, your worldly judgement serve you well here.  

[RoseRose]

Cherry Sodah, what edition of the Tanakh are you using for the Isaiah quote? I know some Biblical Hebrew (1 year of it in college) and the Hebrew edition I have does NOT say that, though I'm not good enough to translate it completely. The Hebrew edition I'm using is the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. This weekend I'll look it up in my Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (a friend has it). It may have something similar... but it doesn't seem quite right.

BTW, about translations... there are mistranslations of the Tanakh places because Hebrew is just plain hard to translate, due to being a sparse language. Depending on which is meant, the same word could have very different implications, especially if the Masorites messed up any of the vowels, because most modern translations are taken of that text... and the same consonants with different vowels can mean many different things.

Out of curiosity, do you know any Biblical languages?  

[Bezant]

I use blueletterbible.com to look up Scripture online. At home, I have the KJV and a New American version.

Are you asking if I am fluent in Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or even Arabic?
If you are, then the answer is no. wink  

[RoseRose]

Cherry Sodah

I use blueletterbible.com to look up Scripture online. At home, I have the KJV and a New American version.

Are you asking if I am fluent in Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or even Arabic?
If you are, then the answer is no. wink

I wouldn't call myself fluent... but I know enough Hebrew to understand how CONFUSING it is... there is no such thing as pronoun-antecedant in the Tanakh. You get to guess who the pronoun is talking about... and it sometimes changes mid-verse.  

[RoseRose]

Hmm... The JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Bible has a different translation of 9:6

"In token of abundant authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts
Shall bring this to pass."

Now, this is still a Messianic prophecy, as in a prophecy predicting the Messiah, but it does NOT state the divinity of the Messiah the way your translation does. I wonder if your translation is working off of the Septuagint? The version I'm working off of is translated from the Masoretic text. Or if it's just one of those very difficult phrases to translate.  

[Bezant]

RoseRose

Hmm... The JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Bible has a different translation of 9:6

"In token of abundant authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts
Shall bring this to pass."

Now, this is still a Messianic prophecy, as in a prophecy predicting the Messiah, but it does NOT state the divinity of the Messiah the way your translation does. I wonder if your translation is working off of the Septuagint? The version I'm working off of is translated from the Masoretic text. Or if it's just one of those very difficult phrases to translate.

Ok...comparing it with

Quote:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It seems like a completely different piece of text, indeed.

Would the same thing happen for all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled listed in Famusamu's sticky?

Also, if pronouns jump midway through a sentence, is that because the writer was sloppy(uneducated)? Or the language is sloppy (not really robust)? Or is it intended to confuse? Or, is it just the way it is - such as if I am recounting a story about me and my family, I would say something like "I can't remember Niagara Falls that well but we had a great time," so that the change to the plural means "me + other person(s)"?  

[RoseRose]

Cherry Sodah

RoseRose

Hmm... The JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Bible has a different translation of 9:6

"In token of abundant authority
And of peace without limit
Upon David's throne and kingdom
That it may be firmly established
In justice and in equity
Now and evermore.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts
Shall bring this to pass."

Now, this is still a Messianic prophecy, as in a prophecy predicting the Messiah, but it does NOT state the divinity of the Messiah the way your translation does. I wonder if your translation is working off of the Septuagint? The version I'm working off of is translated from the Masoretic text. Or if it's just one of those very difficult phrases to translate.

Ok...comparing it with

Quote:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It seems like a completely different piece of text, indeed.

Would the same thing happen for all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled listed in Famusamu's sticky?

Also, if pronouns jump midway through a sentence, is that because the writer was sloppy(uneducated)? Or the language is sloppy (not really robust)? Or is it intended to confuse? Or, is it just the way it is - such as if I am recounting a story about me and my family, I would say something like "I can't remember Niagara Falls that well but we had a great time," so that the change to the plural means "me + other person(s)"?

The same thing would happen for some, and others ARE ambiguous, or possible to be fufilled by many people by now (being a descendant of David, for example.) I don't know about all of them, I haven't looked them all up.

And I think it's the language itself. It's a very sparse language. Many words have multiple meanings or inferences. Also, pronouns only occasionally exist as separate words. Often the pronoun is included in the noun and the verb... so some sentences say, basically, "He went to his house, and he welcomed him in." The first and fourth he refer to one person, and the second and third to another. Conceivably the first three could refer to one person, and the fourth another. If you read the story of Laban and Jacob in the Hebrew, it's full of these occurances. (We had to translate part of that story for my Biblical Hebrew final, so I'm very well acquainted with that particular story.

Also, the original Hebrew does not have any vowels. They were added later... and if any vowels were wrong at any point, that could change the meaning. For example, one set of three consonants, samech, pay, resh, can mean AT LEAST three different things, two verbs and a noun: To recount (a story), to count, and book. Context clues can help... but, not always.

So yeah... the translations are very different, but I can tell you the JPS just looks closer to the Hebrew, but the Hebrew there is very difficult, so I can't translate it personally with any certainty.

EDIT: I now need to look up the translation of 9:5, because that does look MORE similar in the text.

I found it online, and it looks like the difference is in the name... your version translates it, and this version does not:
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; (Isaiah 9:5)

The problem is names are hard to translate... it's related to your translation, but... it could mean "Wonderful, counselor of the Mighty G-d, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" just as easily.

Yeah... so, hard to tell. My lexicon says "wonder of a counselor, of the ideal ruler predicted" (Brown Drivers and Briggs 419). So... it could mean "The Wonder of a Counselor of the Mighty G-d...", meaning he takes counsel with G-d, and hears him... or it could be your way.

Yeah.  

[Silver Wingling]

divineseraph

islam is basically the next branch of YWHW-based religion- they believe in jesus, they follow all the rules, believe in satan...the only differences are based on cultural differences, and the fact that they believe in a newer prophet, mohammed.

I see a big difference. They say Yeshua is a prophet, not the son of God in mortal flesh.  

[divineseraph]

And so do Jews. Do they burn as well?