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I know that this is common belief among Christianity, but, logicaly it would follow that if a being has the ability to see into the future and know with CERTIANTY what choice we are going to make then there was never really a choice to begin with. For example, if God knows you are going to choose to eat a cheeseburger instead of that salad, then the choice of the salad really only exsists in your mind. After all, if you were to choose the salad when God forsees you picking the cheeseburger then you would have just proven God to be falible. So we have no choice but to choose what God wants us to choose, otherwise one of the most basic beliefs of this religion is moot. The belief in a perfect and infalible God. by this principle it would stand to reason that there would be no such thing as free will.

I understand, the idea creeps me out big time, mostly because I'm one of those people that believes that our choices in life make us who we are. But if we actually had no choice in our actions then we cannot expect people to be held accountable for thier deeds, good or bad. And there is no freedom. It is a rather scarey thought, being only the equivalant of flesh and blood puppets for some devine scheme or other.

ok god has a plan for the world as in he plans the weather and stuff like that,he makes events possible but we have to carry them through.as for animals,they have no souls,minds yes souls no and there minds arnt developed enough to actually choose something that complex much less understand it.

your statement contains a lot of base assumptions. how do you know animals do not have a soul? in fact, what makes you so sure that humans do? we have a more complex brain for sure, but how does that make us more special than anything else other than our own vanity and need to feel special? especially in the light that we're severely screwing up this planet.

according to the bible, the coming of the messiah would come to save humanity so no matter who it was meant to be that person had a definate destiny according to gods will. so it was supposedly gods will that it be Jesus' destiny to die for the sins of man.

religious authorities throughout all the ages continually state what gods will is (as if they really could know), and people believe in that authority. when Pope Urbal II proclaimed it was gods will that the christians take back the holy land from the turks, instigating the first crusade, no one questioned it. it's what god wanted. supposedly this god has a plan for each and every one of us, and if that's the case, we really have no choice in the matter.

the idea that he was a god doesnt change the fact that he bled, had feelings, and suffered, and died.

thumbs, and a "superior brain".. make us "special"? if we were truly that special, that high and mighty then we wouldnt have made such a mess of the world. other creatures have other remarkable abilities too. for example, spiders create silk threads who's tensile strength is comparable to the strength of high-grade steel. we're not even the only creatures that can feel emotion.. elephants are known to mourn their dead.

if we were so special and above all the rest of creation then we wouldnt be susceptible to the same conditions the rest of life struggles with.. sickness and disease for example. it doesnt seem to me that this god of yours treats us any different than anything else. we are no more important in the grand scheme of things than a mound of ants. remember this my friend, for all that our egos tell us we are so important and special.. "above" nature, we still need it. we could not exist without nature and all it's creatures in it's delicate balance. we would perish without it. nature however, trees.. lions, ants, spiders, flowers, snakes, etc al.. would all do just fine without us. in fact, they'd do better without us.

believing in the bible and what it says.. believing in ANY religious dogma is believing in an assumption.

really... you initially brought up the idea of the soul as tho it is how we are special, or higher than anything else and this is why we have 'free will' and other animals do not. as if it was gods will that we are more important. and while you didnt actually *say* those things, the fact that in your next post you talked about how we were given this planet to dominate and it's creatures to do with as we see fit tells me I was right. now I'll go back over that post and reply a little more in depth so that you understand better.



*everything* dies. so, you're saying that because animals kill, they dont have a soul? animals kill in order to live. we kill to live too (it just happens to be how life sustains itself), but we also kill more for greed than anything else. either way, this is in no way proof of something having a soul or not. prove there is a soul in the first place.



everything you said above is based on myth. and that myth is based on nothing more than some ingrained need to feel exhaulted in a life that will definately end without having had any meaning otherwise (without such a belief), combined with wishful thinking. nothing in those statements are truth or fact, just religious dogma.

the idea that we are to "dominate" the earth and that all that is on this planet was put here specifically for us, is based on the same self-centered insecure wishful thinking, and I feel it's blatantly *wrong*. if we do what we are continuing to do to the oceans, rain forests, etc..we will eventually die out because of it. it's obvious that we cant do whatever we want with this planet. this way of thinking is mankinds biggest mistake. the idea that we are above nature and somehow more important than anything else on it is what facilitates these terrible actions. if it was gods will (and if you're arguing points of the bible then you're arguing for gods will) that we dominate this planet and rape the earths resources, and exterminate all our wildlife to our hearts content then this wouldnt be true. but it is true. when a species go extinct it adversely affects the whole ecosystem it belongs to, and if we do this enough, it will affect us too. and as far as global warming being wrong (which I might point out I never actually mentioned), I'd rather err on the side of caution.

preachers, ministers, priests, etc all argue from the point of the same myth I mentioned above, and guess what... it's not proof. it's them reinforcing their belief thru their own mythology, and it doesnt work that way. the bible cannot prove itself. I mentioned Pope Urban II to make a point about gods supposed will. the people who did this didnt feel they had a choice. many were shunned if they didnt want to go to the crusades.. considered bad christians. and surely jesus (whether you think he was a god or not is besides the point, he was in a living, feeling human body and he knew fear) didnt feel he had a choice either. it was gods will. your initial statement that god can will certain events to happen but that its up to us to carry out or not didnt make a lot of sense to me. if it's gods will that something will happen then according to the believer it will happen, because it's god we're talking about here, and thus free will is suspended.

and yes, this whole thread certainly is based on assumption. it's assuming there is a god to have a will to begin with. and it's assuming that our own wills are free too. but I'm in agreement with dboyzero when he posted that all the choices we make ultimately stem from environment and personal experience.

oh, my personal belief is that a man (a MAN) named jesus (more correctly jeshua) certainly existed.. that he was a god?.. no I dont believe that. I kept my post on topic (free will/gods will), and I showed that in my last post. and I've never contradicted myself. if you want to argue theology, go to your other topic on evolution and argue it with me there. and please, try to type coherently. I find I have to read your posts multiple times to truly get what you're trying to say.

well, a while back I also heard of a reference to a man named jeshua (or jesus if you will) on some old roman record concerning crucifixion. to me, the bible is more of a historical fiction. there was a king david, there was a herod, there was even a king solomon. but that doesnt mean that all the miracles, talking snakes, water being turned into wine, the virgin birth, curing the blind with a touch, walking on water, resurrections, etc were factual as well. it's history mixed with mythology. at least, that's the way I see it. I truly dont expect you to agree.

and no, I didnt "complain about your spelling". I asked you to type in a more coherent manner. my, are we defensive.