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 Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:27 am
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After much deliberation, I decided I will reply to you here.
CountessValpolicella My main point was that this post was all about helping that person who was talking about suicide...but instead you decided to attack three people who were only trying to help him.
That was my form of helping. I corrected (which we're commanded to do). I offered verses in order to deliver fellow believers from the lies of the devil. We can lose salvation. We can lose the Holy Spirit (directly relevant to what Red Wight asked). It is helpful for him to know it. Knowing the whole truth of Scripture is comforting. You're using words like "attack" as if my reply was violent in nature, yet it wasn't. Lengthy? Yes, as most explanations tend to be. But I wasn't attacking anyone personally.
Ephesians 6:12-16 (NIV)
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
2 Corinthians 10:5 (NIV)
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Every argument that runs contrary to God's Word, and to what Christ taught, needs to be corrected.
CountessValpolicella 1. You spoke about "Zech. 10:2 speak deceitful ...about dreams that are false". That doesn't help your cause to be rude to people. They did help him because they spoke about their own experiences and they were helpful because they spoke from their hearts.
Reviewing what I wrote, I do not see rudeness. I did not say their whole post was false. I did not question the sincerity of their suffering and dealings with depression. I noted an error, one single error, from the entirety of their post. I singled it out and explained it so that they, and Red Wight, would not (or would no longer) be deceived by it.
Speaking with sincerity is all fine and dandy, but error is not—no matter how genuinely believed it is. If God says, "go right" and people are saying, "go left", is it rude to tell people, "actually no, he said go right"? No, it's not rude at all.
To claim that anyone has been helpful to Red Wight is a bit premature to say; he has not replied at all to the thread. And at the end of the day, if 90% of the post was truth and a single lie that leads astray was mixed in (that salvation can't be lost, and that the Holy Spirit can't be lost), that little lie renders the post NOT helpful in the long run. Be careful what you say. We will be judged for every word we speak and what our words lead others to believe.
Matthew 12:36-37 (KJV)
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 18:6 (NIV)
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Again, leading baby believers astray or into sin is a big offense in God's eyes. That is what I'm interested in preventing.
CountessValpolicella 2. You spoke about "false teachers and false prophets". No one was a being a false teacher or prophet. Someone who is a false teacher is one who willfully deceives someone. They did not do that.
Actually, yes, whenever something deviates from scripture, a lie is being taught and a false teacher is in the midst (or at least their doctrine is in the midst). The totality of scriptures clearly show that salvation can be lost, the Holy Spirit too. To teach the opposite is false teaching. Anyone teaching "you can never lose salvation", "you can never lose the Holy Spirit" would, by definition, be a false teacher.
NOT all false teachers / false prophets willfully deceive:
1 Kings 22:23-24 (NIV)
23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. “Which way did the spirit from[a] the Lord go when he went from me to speak to you?” he asked.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Kings 22:24 Or Spirit of
Zedekiah thought he was a prophet of the Holy God of Israel and Micaiah comes along and says, "actually...you have a deceiving spirit in you". Zedekiah didn't know.
CountessValpolicella 3. You spoke about leading the sheep astray. Jesus was talking about Pastors leading their flock astray and referring to false teachers. Again, No one was doing that.
Joseph Prince taught something false. Starry taught something false. So did Countess Verona. Erroneous statements lead astray. They were erroneous because the totality of scripture paints a different picture.
CountessValpolicella 4. You spoke about the Sadducees and Pharisees... they criticized Jesus when He healed someone on the Sabbath. They did not care that He healed the poor man they just wanted to find something to critique Jesus. Isn't that what you are doing? You are being critical not helpful and rude not loving.
No, it's not what I'm doing. Jesus did not heal with error. Jesus, when he spotted error in religious people, would correct them. He'd call them a brood of vipers (Matthew 23:33). Jesus called someone a name, and I haven't, yet you go so far as to say I'm being rude when I haven't even gone to that level. Jesus would call out their ignorance, as I previously quoted; he'd straight up tell people, "you don't know the scriptures". Are you going to call Jesus rude? Because I haven't done anything he wouldn't (and in fact, I've held back: I haven't called anyone here a snake nor a child of the devil, the latter of which he did in John 8:44).
CountessValpolicella 5. Why did you talk about me being "offended" or "Joseph Prince". I wasn't offended...and I did not talk about J.P.
It was a question. And I mistook you for Countess Verona since you have very similar usernames.
CountessValpolicella 6. You talk about correcting people? If someone is in great error that would hinder their mortal soul or if they are in danger of sinning then you may correct them in love. Not attack them... don't go through posts looking for theological debates to argue.
Correcting in love is exactly what I did and yet you're perceiving it as an attack for some reason. And actually, to be able to correct, yes, we do go through posts, diligently reading what other believers are saying in our midst. This isn't a theological debate. There was error, that does lead astray, it was exposed. End of story. You're drawing this out for no reason based on a false perception of "attacking". I didn't attack a single individual in this thread.
CountessValpolicella I will repeat myself... The Bible says that we are to avoid debating theological errors and not quarrel with each other and not "look" for things to argue.
"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." Titus 3:9
I read it just fine the first time. And you're trying to distort this verse to suggest "theological errors" are never to be corrected. Which I showed you, from an example of Jesus no less, where he does call out error. I'm not quarreling or "looking" for things to argue. If I spot an error, that will lead a new/old believer wrong or lead them to stay in sins, I will call it out. None of the information I offered about the Holy Spirit was "foolish controversy", "unprofitable", or "useless". And like I also stated, we need to be able to correct at any time, anywhere, in season, out of season (2 Timothy 4:2).
CountessValpolicella "How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:11-12 RSV)Just as yeast causes bread to rise, yeast was sometimes used as a symbol of sinful pride which made people haughty and “puffed up."
Just like there's a "leaven" of the Pharisees, there is a "leaven" of God's Kingdom
Luke 13:20-21 (KJV)
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
More accurately, "leaven" is "teaching". Teaching of the Pharisees or the teaching from heaven. The very verses you quoted tell you as well, Jesus was warning of "the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees", a.k.a. the doctrines of the religious authorities of the time which showed ignorance of the Scriptures and of God's power (Matthew 22:29; Mark 12:24). There are doctrines that are very popular and "authoritative" in the church right now that are leading people astray. And when it is being offered to Red Wight, a new believer who may not be able to detect it, I will not stand for it.
CountessValpolicella It is better to help people with a loving heart than criticize them with a haughty heart. Think of it this way, are you helping someone’s relationship with God or are you wanting recognition of your Bible knowledge and your own accomplishments?
Honestly, I have no clue why you're interpreting what I wrote as coming from a haughty place. Error is not something I take lightly; it has real consequences on a believer's walk. God inspired certain details to be included in the scriptures for our safety. Everything that I bother to write in this guild is about safeguarding others' relationships with God.
CountessValpolicella If you feel led to be a teacher then teach. Post in a separate thread about what you think people should know.
No. That is illogical. If an error was posted, directed at another person, and that error could influence anyone else reading that specific thread (including, but not limited to, the person the reply was directed towards), the correction belongs in that same thread. Why are you reducing this to a "theological" stance? as if variance in the message is acceptable? We're suppose to be of one mind. Two opposite statements ("can lose Holy spirit" vs "can't lose Holy Spirit") cannot be true at the same time—and if the OP is asking precisely about that, the reply belongs in the OP's thread.
CountessValpolicella Don't critique someone's post, it will only make them NOT want to post in this guild.
You're asking not to correct anyone, ever. Because ultimately, I did not critique their whole post. I noticed an erroneous claim and called it out so Red Wight wouldn't believe the lie that apparently the person who posted it also fell for. What you interpret as an attack on three people, was an act of deliverance from the hands of Satan's lies, a lie which wound up in your heads through compromised teachers unstably handling the word of God.
I've been a part of the guild for a while and this is what I do. I will make no promises to shut up if/when I see something contrary to scripture. If it endangers the spiritual health of others, I will call it out.
1 John 4:1 (NIV)
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Titus 1:9 (NIV)
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
If you still feel that I haven't sufficiently explained my intentions, feel free to PM me.
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:23 am
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I have to agree with real eyes realize. Let's not give someone a false sense of security. Our Lord said Himself in Revelation to the church in Ephesus;
Revelation 2:3-5
and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.
Emphasis mine.
You can obviously fall, or else there would be no need to repent. The church had left its first love, which is Jesus, and Jesus called them to remember again the love they used to have for Him.
To the church in Sardis:
Revelation 3:2
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
Emphasis mine.
For something to die, it must have been alive at one point?
We see also in Galatians someone falling from grace:
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Emphasis mine.
Paul goes so far as to say they have been alienated from Christ. It implies that they first knew Him.
In the beginning of the letter to the Galatians he warns against coming under a yoke again.
Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:7-9
You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.
You can stop running the good race, and keep from obeying the truth.
The Galatians were running a good race, then they disobeyed the truth...
2 Timothy 2:5
An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
Here we see the importance of doctrine. Of keeping the faith, and of walking in the Spirit. Producing good fruit. smile
Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:53 pm
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Of course you agree with her because she is the Vice-Captain. Even when she is wrong you will agree with her. She did not help the person that started this post. She only condemned the people who tried to help him. Besides, the things she attacked those people for was so unimportant compared with the main topic of this thread. The person who was hurting.
The scriptures that you posted talk about teaching but teaching in love. If there is no love in the teaching, then how can you call yourself followers of Christ?
“Teacher, which command in God’s Law is the most important?” Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” Matthew 22:36-40
We are to love others as ourselves as the first commandment. If we do this, we will have compassion and understanding towards others and not condemn or judge others. We will want to help others in need like the person who started the thread, not point fingers at those who were actually helping him. Learn to be a teacher and learn to guide others in love. If we pick out little things to find fault then we are criticizing and condemning.
Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Jesus is talking about the Pharisees here, they were only concerned with the law and ignored the simple truths of man and YHWH. The Pharisees condemned others by pointing fingers instead helping others. They were only concerned with their hypocrisy rather than having a relationship with YHWH.
The Pharisees had blindness and hardness of heart. They knew the law but did not understand it. They knew only how to condemn others who they felt were not following their law. They did not have compassion for others neither did they help others.
She quoted the Bible but she had no understanding in what she posted. She accused others of being “false teachers” and “false prophets”. She accused them of “leading people astray” and “speaking deceitful“. Someone who is a false teacher is one who willfully deceives someone. None of those people she criticized were doing any of those things. She did not offer help to the person who started this post, did she? No. Don't you realize that doing things like that will only drive people away from this guild with the coldness, faultfinding, and the accusations. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:34 am
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CountessValpolicella Of course you agree with her because she is the Vice-Captain. Even when she is wrong you will agree with her. She did not help the person that started this post. She only condemned the people who tried to help him. Besides, the things she attacked those people for was so unimportant compared with the main topic of this thread. The person who was hurting. The scriptures that you posted talk about teaching but teaching in love. If there is no love in the teaching, then how can you call yourself followers of Christ? “Teacher, which command in God’s Law is the most important?” Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” Matthew 22:36-40We are to love others as ourselves as the first commandment. If we do this, we will have compassion and understanding towards others and not condemn or judge others. We will want to help others in need like the person who started the thread, not point fingers at those who were actually helping him. Learn to be a teacher and learn to guide others in love. If we pick out little things to find fault then we are criticizing and condemning. Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' Jesus is talking about the Pharisees here, they were only concerned with the law and ignored the simple truths of man and YHWH. The Pharisees condemned others by pointing fingers instead helping others. They were only concerned with their hypocrisy rather than having a relationship with YHWH. The Pharisees had blindness and hardness of heart. They knew the law but did not understand it. They knew only how to condemn others who they felt were not following their law. They did not have compassion for others neither did they help others. She quoted the Bible but she had no understanding in what she posted. She accused others of being “false teachers” and “false prophets”. She accused them of “leading people astray” and “speaking deceitful“. Someone who is a false teacher is one who willfully deceives someone. None of those people she criticized were doing any of those things. She did not offer help to the person who started this post, did she? No. Don't you realize that doing things like that will only drive people away from this guild with the coldness, faultfinding, and the accusations.
I see it as a very important topic, and not a little thing...
One thing I like about real eyes realize is that she is not afraid to speak up when she doesn't agree. That is love. Daring to speak up when you believe someone is wrong. It is for their own good. Allowing someone to walk in error, just to give them "peace", is not really a peace built on something lasting, or true. Neither is it love. I have, and I am encouraging people to correct me when I am wrong and I expect others to allow me to do the same for them. I have not always agreed with rer on topics, and suspect that I still don't. However she always backs up what she is saying with Scripture, and I respect her for that. I like her, because she doesn't always agree with people just to keep the peace. Just to not drive people away. I just disagreed with a member of the crew yesterday, and wrote why I disagreed with her interpretation. So I think it is unfair of you to say I agree with her only because she a Vice Captain. Implying that if she did not have her title I would not agree...
Can someone be a false prophet and not know it..? I was at one point a deceived deceiver. I did not know I was wrong in following esoteric teachings, and taught other people the things I was deceived about. It was not until I was convicted it was a sin that I understood that it was a sin.
Isaiah 30:10
They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
It is never my intention to drive someone away, but to cause reflection and self-examination.
Mark 7:5-7 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
They were making peoples lives difficult by heaping on teaching and commandments of men. They were more concerned about looking good on the outside - than actually doing what God wanted them to do. More concerned about the praise of men - then pleasing God (Matthew 23:5). It is true that they had no real compassion for men. However, I don't think you can place us in that category.
Quote: Don't you realize that doing things like that will only drive people away from this guild with the coldness, faultfinding, and the accusations
I understand that many people do not ever want to called out on anything, or have anything they say questioned. Nobody likes particularly to be corrected, but it is necessary. I know people will leave because they take offense to things that are said here. I don't want people to smooth things over to keep a false peace. The guild is not about placating people.
Proverbs 27:5-6
Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
Quote: We are to love others as ourselves as the first commandment
That is true, and I agree. Love is also daring though to tell a brother, or a sister that she is mistaken.
Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Let me say finally that I appreciate that you speak up when you disagree with something we have said. It is very good that you do that, and you should keep that up no matter where you are. We learn something - you learn something. People who read it may learn something. It makes us look up things in Scripture, and errors are made apparent to be replaced with the truth. smile |
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