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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:49 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:07 pm
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Skeksis Dante_Sonata Those videos that show Chinese people skinning live cats are also fake -- 1) They often show the skin coming off rather easily; rip, and it's off. Anyone who has ever slaughtered an animal knows that skin is a bit more closely attached than that, and takes some effort to remove. 2) Same as the meat -- skinning a live animal ruins the pelt. Mostly because the animal is squirming around a lot which makes for uneven pelts and random tears which, as a leatherworker, I can honestly say makes that pelt worthless for anything other than scrap. Also, I'm not really convinced that dog/cat pelts are good for much anyway. I could be wrong on that though. Eh, I agree with the rest of your post but not this part. Large animals are harder to skin but if anything the skinner in the infamous 'live' skinning video] was a little slow. I'm a slow skinner myself but I've seen people skin foxes out in about 30 seconds flat. Most of the skin can be pulled off with little difficulty with just a few cuts to the legs to get started and a few cuts around the nose to finish up. I'm also not convinved that the pelts would be uneven as most videos show people case skinning. It would be hard to make a case skinned pelt uneven as there is no ventral cut. I have no reason to believe that the videos aren't real. I'm sure that it happened. I'm also equally sure that they were staged and are not a regular procedure. Here's why: -A live animal bleeds. Blood, particularly if the animal is pale, can stain. Stained pelts don't look good at auction. -A bleeding animal is a slippery animal. So is a wriggling one. A bleeding wriggling animal would be very slippery and would take longer to skin. When the skinner has dozens of animals to process they aren't going to take any longer than necessary. -There is a danger of being bitten or of cutting yourself. -Many fur farms [but not all] like for their animals to cool down a little before they are skinned. This is due to a hardening of the hair follical, which prevents the hair from pulling out as easily during skinning. Cat and dog fur is usually used for trim. I've seen a few cat fur items kicking around on ebay.
As I said, I could be wrong. All I've ever skinned was a cow or two, and not a one of them was as slick and easy to skin as those videos seem to portray. I'm definitely no pro on skinning -- anymore, all I do is buy pelts and process them.
I'm not sure what infamous video you mean. I've seen a few here and there, mostly clips mixed in with other 'abuse'. A lot of them made it look like all they did was run a cut around the neck and then yanked the skin as easily as yanking a tablecloth off a table, as if it weren't attached at all.
I suppose I didn't clarify correctly on 'uneven.' I've bought a few pelts from local hunters who simply failed at life at skinning an animal -- they cut through the pelt instead of cutting it away from the muscle and whatnot, made undercuts all over... I even sat and watched one guy screw up so royally he managed to leave a few patches of skin here and there, before I had to take the deer away and do it myself.
More or less, I meant untterly destroying the flesh side of a pelt, due to the blade slipping and knicking into it. Do a terrible enough job, and the thickness of the pelt will be compromised and uneven in some places. I imagine a squirming, biting, clawing animal isn't going to make it easy to simply pop it's pelt off without causing damage to the pelt. |
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:09 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:15 pm
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Dante_Sonata Skeksis Dante_Sonata Those videos that show Chinese people skinning live cats are also fake -- 1) They often show the skin coming off rather easily; rip, and it's off. Anyone who has ever slaughtered an animal knows that skin is a bit more closely attached than that, and takes some effort to remove. 2) Same as the meat -- skinning a live animal ruins the pelt. Mostly because the animal is squirming around a lot which makes for uneven pelts and random tears which, as a leatherworker, I can honestly say makes that pelt worthless for anything other than scrap. Also, I'm not really convinced that dog/cat pelts are good for much anyway. I could be wrong on that though. Eh, I agree with the rest of your post but not this part. Large animals are harder to skin but if anything the skinner in the infamous 'live' skinning video] was a little slow. I'm a slow skinner myself but I've seen people skin foxes out in about 30 seconds flat. Most of the skin can be pulled off with little difficulty with just a few cuts to the legs to get started and a few cuts around the nose to finish up. I'm also not convinved that the pelts would be uneven as most videos show people case skinning. It would be hard to make a case skinned pelt uneven as there is no ventral cut. I have no reason to believe that the videos aren't real. I'm sure that it happened. I'm also equally sure that they were staged and are not a regular procedure. Here's why: -A live animal bleeds. Blood, particularly if the animal is pale, can stain. Stained pelts don't look good at auction. -A bleeding animal is a slippery animal. So is a wriggling one. A bleeding wriggling animal would be very slippery and would take longer to skin. When the skinner has dozens of animals to process they aren't going to take any longer than necessary. -There is a danger of being bitten or of cutting yourself. -Many fur farms [but not all] like for their animals to cool down a little before they are skinned. This is due to a hardening of the hair follical, which prevents the hair from pulling out as easily during skinning. Cat and dog fur is usually used for trim. I've seen a few cat fur items kicking around on ebay. As I said, I could be wrong. All I've ever skinned was a cow or two, and not a one of them was as slick and easy to skin as those videos seem to portray. I'm definitely no pro on skinning -- anymore, all I do is buy pelts and process them. I'm not sure what infamous video you mean. I've seen a few here and there, mostly clips mixed in with other 'abuse'. A lot of them made it look like all they did was run a cut around the neck and then yanked the skin as easily as yanking a tablecloth off a table, as if it weren't attached at all. I suppose I didn't clarify correctly on 'uneven.' I've bought a few pelts from local hunters who simply failed at life at skinning an animal -- they cut through the pelt instead of cutting it away from the muscle and whatnot, made undercuts all over... I even sat and watched one guy screw up so royally he managed to leave a few patches of skin here and there, before I had to take the deer away and do it myself. More or less, I meant untterly destroying the flesh side of a pelt, due to the blade slipping and knicking into it. Do a terrible enough job, and the thickness of the pelt will be compromised and uneven in some places. I imagine a squirming, biting, clawing animal isn't going to make it easy to simply pop it's pelt off without causing damage to the pelt.
I imagine skinning a cow would be very hard yards indeed. A fox, cat or other such animal is very different and the pelt can be yanked off once a few starting cuts have been made. I'm a lightweight so I can't do it with foxes but have seen blokes do to to foxes what I can do to rabbits [pin with foot, two cuts at the hind legs and then pull entire coat off like a jumper with one last cut at the nose. Some don't even have to do that].
The video I was talking about was released several years ago and showed a man whacking a raccoon dog against the ground to stun it before hanging it up on a gambrel and skinning it whilst still alive and moving. The video ended with him dumping the still blinking/moving skinless animal on a pile of other dead animals. It was so ******** up. gonk
Cutting around the neck isn't a typical method of skinning furbearers but it would be super easy. The hardest part is the head so if you bypassed that it would be very slick and fast. Those people you saw skinning sound hopeless. razz When case skinning a small animal you really don't need to use the knife very often, not like you would with something big. But then I have seen people mess up rabbits. >.< |
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:33 pm
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Skeksis Dante_Sonata Skeksis Dante_Sonata Those videos that show Chinese people skinning live cats are also fake -- 1) They often show the skin coming off rather easily; rip, and it's off. Anyone who has ever slaughtered an animal knows that skin is a bit more closely attached than that, and takes some effort to remove. 2) Same as the meat -- skinning a live animal ruins the pelt. Mostly because the animal is squirming around a lot which makes for uneven pelts and random tears which, as a leatherworker, I can honestly say makes that pelt worthless for anything other than scrap. Also, I'm not really convinced that dog/cat pelts are good for much anyway. I could be wrong on that though. Eh, I agree with the rest of your post but not this part. Large animals are harder to skin but if anything the skinner in the infamous 'live' skinning video] was a little slow. I'm a slow skinner myself but I've seen people skin foxes out in about 30 seconds flat. Most of the skin can be pulled off with little difficulty with just a few cuts to the legs to get started and a few cuts around the nose to finish up. I'm also not convinved that the pelts would be uneven as most videos show people case skinning. It would be hard to make a case skinned pelt uneven as there is no ventral cut. I have no reason to believe that the videos aren't real. I'm sure that it happened. I'm also equally sure that they were staged and are not a regular procedure. Here's why: -A live animal bleeds. Blood, particularly if the animal is pale, can stain. Stained pelts don't look good at auction. -A bleeding animal is a slippery animal. So is a wriggling one. A bleeding wriggling animal would be very slippery and would take longer to skin. When the skinner has dozens of animals to process they aren't going to take any longer than necessary. -There is a danger of being bitten or of cutting yourself. -Many fur farms [but not all] like for their animals to cool down a little before they are skinned. This is due to a hardening of the hair follical, which prevents the hair from pulling out as easily during skinning. Cat and dog fur is usually used for trim. I've seen a few cat fur items kicking around on ebay. As I said, I could be wrong. All I've ever skinned was a cow or two, and not a one of them was as slick and easy to skin as those videos seem to portray. I'm definitely no pro on skinning -- anymore, all I do is buy pelts and process them. I'm not sure what infamous video you mean. I've seen a few here and there, mostly clips mixed in with other 'abuse'. A lot of them made it look like all they did was run a cut around the neck and then yanked the skin as easily as yanking a tablecloth off a table, as if it weren't attached at all. I suppose I didn't clarify correctly on 'uneven.' I've bought a few pelts from local hunters who simply failed at life at skinning an animal -- they cut through the pelt instead of cutting it away from the muscle and whatnot, made undercuts all over... I even sat and watched one guy screw up so royally he managed to leave a few patches of skin here and there, before I had to take the deer away and do it myself. More or less, I meant untterly destroying the flesh side of a pelt, due to the blade slipping and knicking into it. Do a terrible enough job, and the thickness of the pelt will be compromised and uneven in some places. I imagine a squirming, biting, clawing animal isn't going to make it easy to simply pop it's pelt off without causing damage to the pelt. I imagine skinning a cow would be very hard yards indeed. A fox, cat or other such animal is very different and the pelt can be yanked off once a few starting cuts have been made. I'm a lightweight so I can't do it with foxes but have seen blokes do to to foxes what I can do to rabbits [pin with foot, two cuts at the hind legs and then pull entire coat off like a jumper with one last cut at the nose. Some don't even have to do that]. The video I was talking about was released several years ago and showed a man whacking a raccoon dog against the ground to stun it before hanging it up on a gambrel and skinning it whilst still alive and moving. The video ended with him dumping the still blinking/moving skinless animal on a pile of other dead animals. It was so ******** up. gonk Cutting around the neck isn't a typical method of skinning furbearers but it would be super easy. The hardest part is the head so if you bypassed that it would be very slick and fast. Those people you saw skinning sound hopeless. razz When case skinning a small animal you really don't need to use the knife very often, not like you would with something big. But then I have seen people mess up rabbits. >.<
That was the exact same video I saw... gonk |
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:41 pm
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Skeksis Dante_Sonata Skeksis Dante_Sonata Those videos that show Chinese people skinning live cats are also fake -- 1) They often show the skin coming off rather easily; rip, and it's off. Anyone who has ever slaughtered an animal knows that skin is a bit more closely attached than that, and takes some effort to remove. 2) Same as the meat -- skinning a live animal ruins the pelt. Mostly because the animal is squirming around a lot which makes for uneven pelts and random tears which, as a leatherworker, I can honestly say makes that pelt worthless for anything other than scrap. Also, I'm not really convinced that dog/cat pelts are good for much anyway. I could be wrong on that though. Eh, I agree with the rest of your post but not this part. Large animals are harder to skin but if anything the skinner in the infamous 'live' skinning video] was a little slow. I'm a slow skinner myself but I've seen people skin foxes out in about 30 seconds flat. Most of the skin can be pulled off with little difficulty with just a few cuts to the legs to get started and a few cuts around the nose to finish up. I'm also not convinved that the pelts would be uneven as most videos show people case skinning. It would be hard to make a case skinned pelt uneven as there is no ventral cut. I have no reason to believe that the videos aren't real. I'm sure that it happened. I'm also equally sure that they were staged and are not a regular procedure. Here's why: -A live animal bleeds. Blood, particularly if the animal is pale, can stain. Stained pelts don't look good at auction. -A bleeding animal is a slippery animal. So is a wriggling one. A bleeding wriggling animal would be very slippery and would take longer to skin. When the skinner has dozens of animals to process they aren't going to take any longer than necessary. -There is a danger of being bitten or of cutting yourself. -Many fur farms [but not all] like for their animals to cool down a little before they are skinned. This is due to a hardening of the hair follical, which prevents the hair from pulling out as easily during skinning. Cat and dog fur is usually used for trim. I've seen a few cat fur items kicking around on ebay. As I said, I could be wrong. All I've ever skinned was a cow or two, and not a one of them was as slick and easy to skin as those videos seem to portray. I'm definitely no pro on skinning -- anymore, all I do is buy pelts and process them. I'm not sure what infamous video you mean. I've seen a few here and there, mostly clips mixed in with other 'abuse'. A lot of them made it look like all they did was run a cut around the neck and then yanked the skin as easily as yanking a tablecloth off a table, as if it weren't attached at all. I suppose I didn't clarify correctly on 'uneven.' I've bought a few pelts from local hunters who simply failed at life at skinning an animal -- they cut through the pelt instead of cutting it away from the muscle and whatnot, made undercuts all over... I even sat and watched one guy screw up so royally he managed to leave a few patches of skin here and there, before I had to take the deer away and do it myself. More or less, I meant untterly destroying the flesh side of a pelt, due to the blade slipping and knicking into it. Do a terrible enough job, and the thickness of the pelt will be compromised and uneven in some places. I imagine a squirming, biting, clawing animal isn't going to make it easy to simply pop it's pelt off without causing damage to the pelt. I imagine skinning a cow would be very hard yards indeed. A fox, cat or other such animal is very different and the pelt can be yanked off once a few starting cuts have been made. I'm a lightweight so I can't do it with foxes but have seen blokes do to to foxes what I can do to rabbits [pin with foot, two cuts at the hind legs and then pull entire coat off like a jumper with one last cut at the nose. Some don't even have to do that]. The video I was talking about was released several years ago and showed a man whacking a raccoon dog against the ground to stun it before hanging it up on a gambrel and skinning it whilst still alive and moving. The video ended with him dumping the still blinking/moving skinless animal on a pile of other dead animals. It was so ******** up. gonk Cutting around the neck isn't a typical method of skinning furbearers but it would be super easy. The hardest part is the head so if you bypassed that it would be very slick and fast. Those people you saw skinning sound hopeless. razz When case skinning a small animal you really don't need to use the knife very often, not like you would with something big. But then I have seen people mess up rabbits. >.<
Then I stand corrected. The videos I saw were mostly people pulling mangy looking cats out of little chicken boxes (those mesh things on a wood frame that they often mass-haul chickens in... not too sure on how else to describe them), stripping the skin off them, and then tossing them by the scruff or tail into a pile. In one of them, a cat he tossed tried to get up after it was skinned, and got knocked over when he threw another skinned cat at it. D: |
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:49 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:52 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:32 pm
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Dante_Sonata Well, I'd probably lay it out something like Intro Proof -- i.e. covering that case where they were found to be picking up cats and dogs from shelters and assuring the shelters that they would be rehoming the animals, and then euthanized the animals and dumped them in the dumpster the same day. (I believe I read about it on the PETAKillsAnimals site -- I can look it up again if you're not familiar) Debunking some of their staged videos/pictures/etc. Alternative, legit animal welfare groups Resources There's probably other stuff that could be added, but that's what I came up with off the top of my head.
To expand on this [good] layout:
Intro - what PETA is, what they say they stand for, what they really stand for, and why they are wrong.
In the 'Proof' section, organize it into different accounts/themes, such as:
1) Income/funding and how their money is spent. Include rediculous advertizing.
2) Their views on pets. Include numbers of pets acquired vs how many rehomed and euthanized, as well as quotes from the Founder on how pets should be done away with. List benefits of owning pets, such as how it lowers blood pressure.
3) Fur and meat animals. (I group them together because they are both used for their bodily products). Include laws on animal treatment, how animals are processed, and for fur, which animals can/cannot be used (CITES & endangered species). List preferred ways of treatment (such as buying free range vs not) With meat animals, you can include how nature itself eats meat, and it is a part of life, whether or not a person chooses to [eat meat].
4) Lab animals. Include their purpose and limited use, and laws/regulations, whether by govenment or scientific community. List benefits. Include quotes from the Founder.
5) Zoos and aquariums. Include research, eduction, accreditation, breeding.
6)Prosecutions/arrests/controversies
For a conclusion, make it very clear that animal abuse is not ok, and that everyone needs to give them best care they can (just cause were roasting PETA doesn't mean we think abuse is ok, quite the contrary!). Include things people can do to help, and websites/groups that actually help them.
Sweet, simple and to the point I think would be especially good, since PETA supporters don't seem that bright...
That, and there's a lot to say and it should all get listened to.
Hope that helps and gives you a place to start. Wish I could be of more help, but I don't have enough time to look all that up, nor would I know quite where to start. Best of luck! |
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:07 am
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CrissAngelLover12345 Testicular Diabeetus  I am working on the intro =) Can anyone post the skinning video I want to see it for myself. I need to go to bed shortly, I'll see if I can locate that video again tomorrow, and post the link to it. I'll also look closely on the site and see if it is indeed PETA related or not. If it is, then it's most likely staged, if not, then who knows...
I think I found the video, and It indeed was PETA. I happened to find the Animal Saviors website, which looked extremely familiar, and I clicked on the video, and sure enough, it was that video. It does say that the videos and pictures are courtesy of PETA. I watched some of it, and I now can definitely tell it's fake. You'd think there would be more blood coming from the raccoon dog than that. Before I realized that clicking on the picture was that video, I looked it up again, and found it on PETA's website as well. http://www.animalsaviors.org/index.html <-- is the site I originally saw it on It was difficult to relocate the video on that site. It took me a while to figure out where the video was. Here's the link to the video on PETA's website: http://features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/ it has the video right on that page, loaded with a bunch of "facts"... It doesn't really surprise me that it was done by PETA... |
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:47 am
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:50 am
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Dante_Sonata Skeksis Dante_Sonata Skeksis Dante_Sonata Those videos that show Chinese people skinning live cats are also fake -- 1) They often show the skin coming off rather easily; rip, and it's off. Anyone who has ever slaughtered an animal knows that skin is a bit more closely attached than that, and takes some effort to remove. 2) Same as the meat -- skinning a live animal ruins the pelt. Mostly because the animal is squirming around a lot which makes for uneven pelts and random tears which, as a leatherworker, I can honestly say makes that pelt worthless for anything other than scrap. Also, I'm not really convinced that dog/cat pelts are good for much anyway. I could be wrong on that though. Eh, I agree with the rest of your post but not this part. Large animals are harder to skin but if anything the skinner in the infamous 'live' skinning video] was a little slow. I'm a slow skinner myself but I've seen people skin foxes out in about 30 seconds flat. Most of the skin can be pulled off with little difficulty with just a few cuts to the legs to get started and a few cuts around the nose to finish up. I'm also not convinved that the pelts would be uneven as most videos show people case skinning. It would be hard to make a case skinned pelt uneven as there is no ventral cut. I have no reason to believe that the videos aren't real. I'm sure that it happened. I'm also equally sure that they were staged and are not a regular procedure. Here's why: -A live animal bleeds. Blood, particularly if the animal is pale, can stain. Stained pelts don't look good at auction. -A bleeding animal is a slippery animal. So is a wriggling one. A bleeding wriggling animal would be very slippery and would take longer to skin. When the skinner has dozens of animals to process they aren't going to take any longer than necessary. -There is a danger of being bitten or of cutting yourself. -Many fur farms [but not all] like for their animals to cool down a little before they are skinned. This is due to a hardening of the hair follical, which prevents the hair from pulling out as easily during skinning. Cat and dog fur is usually used for trim. I've seen a few cat fur items kicking around on ebay. As I said, I could be wrong. All I've ever skinned was a cow or two, and not a one of them was as slick and easy to skin as those videos seem to portray. I'm definitely no pro on skinning -- anymore, all I do is buy pelts and process them. I'm not sure what infamous video you mean. I've seen a few here and there, mostly clips mixed in with other 'abuse'. A lot of them made it look like all they did was run a cut around the neck and then yanked the skin as easily as yanking a tablecloth off a table, as if it weren't attached at all. I suppose I didn't clarify correctly on 'uneven.' I've bought a few pelts from local hunters who simply failed at life at skinning an animal -- they cut through the pelt instead of cutting it away from the muscle and whatnot, made undercuts all over... I even sat and watched one guy screw up so royally he managed to leave a few patches of skin here and there, before I had to take the deer away and do it myself. More or less, I meant untterly destroying the flesh side of a pelt, due to the blade slipping and knicking into it. Do a terrible enough job, and the thickness of the pelt will be compromised and uneven in some places. I imagine a squirming, biting, clawing animal isn't going to make it easy to simply pop it's pelt off without causing damage to the pelt. I imagine skinning a cow would be very hard yards indeed. A fox, cat or other such animal is very different and the pelt can be yanked off once a few starting cuts have been made. I'm a lightweight so I can't do it with foxes but have seen blokes do to to foxes what I can do to rabbits [pin with foot, two cuts at the hind legs and then pull entire coat off like a jumper with one last cut at the nose. Some don't even have to do that]. The video I was talking about was released several years ago and showed a man whacking a raccoon dog against the ground to stun it before hanging it up on a gambrel and skinning it whilst still alive and moving. The video ended with him dumping the still blinking/moving skinless animal on a pile of other dead animals. It was so ******** up. gonk Cutting around the neck isn't a typical method of skinning furbearers but it would be super easy. The hardest part is the head so if you bypassed that it would be very slick and fast. Those people you saw skinning sound hopeless. razz When case skinning a small animal you really don't need to use the knife very often, not like you would with something big. But then I have seen people mess up rabbits. >.< Then I stand corrected. The videos I saw were mostly people pulling mangy looking cats out of little chicken boxes (those mesh things on a wood frame that they often mass-haul chickens in... not too sure on how else to describe them), stripping the skin off them, and then tossing them by the scruff or tail into a pile. In one of them, a cat he tossed tried to get up after it was skinned, and got knocked over when he threw another skinned cat at it. D:
I haven't seen those. gonk Probably a good thing. |
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:00 am
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:46 am
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