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 Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:18 pm
lilchibiusa How is it unconstitutional? Don't we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This is just something to support our right to life. And I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people are opposed to it. The health care reform bill is getting quite a bit of positive support from most of the people on campus. I've only seen a few people that are opposed. If you are surprised that people are against it than you have quite a bit of reading to do. Universal health care if a absolutely terrible idea. I could easily look up numerous references from other countries saying how this type of health care is terrible for a any nation. People have to wait in lines, they are put on waiting list. People from Canada come to the United States and pay out of their own pockets to have surgeries that they would otherwise have to wait for in Canada. The elderly are losing their rights and their money because they will have to be judged based on their age and health condition to see whether or not they can have a surgery that they want or need. It is based on what you put into society and many elderly don't make that cut. I have a friend who's 7 year old son has cancer and he's been keeping up with the news over this and he is scared to death to see what is going to happen to his son's care. The whole quality of care is going to be affected by this.
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:20 pm
shadowflameguardian lilchibiusa How is it unconstitutional? Don't we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This is just something to support our right to life. And I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people are opposed to it. The health care reform bill is getting quite a bit of positive support from most of the people on campus. I've only seen a few people that are opposed. If you are surprised that people are against it than you have quite a bit of reading to do. Universal health care if a absolutely terrible idea. I could easily look up numerous references from other countries saying how this type of health care is terrible for a any nation. People have to wait in lines, they are put on waiting list. People from Canada come to the United States and pay out of their own pockets to have surgeries that they would otherwise have to wait for in Canada. The elderly are losing their rights and their money because they will have to be judged based on their age and health condition to see whether or not they can have a surgery that they want or need. It is based on what you put into society and many elderly don't make that cut. I have a friend who's 7 year old son has cancer and he's been keeping up with the news over this and he is scared to death to see what is going to happen to his son's care. The whole quality of care is going to be affected by this. I doubt that they would deny children the right to be covered. And I'm also guessing that the Canadians who come to the US for surgeries have plenty of money. I've heard all sorts of reactions about it. I was talking with some Canadians in another guild I'm in to find out what they thought about it. Both of them said that they liked their health care system in general, but they wished that it was better managed like in Europe. It was something about the government being inefficient with something, and having outside regulation on something. I have to check the posts. One person even said they he was wondering why we didn't do something like this sooner. @Green - They only passed it in one house? eek But how can they even say that it passed if it didn't pass in both houses? (I didn't pay very close attention in Government either.)
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:46 am
lilchibiusa shadowflameguardian lilchibiusa How is it unconstitutional? Don't we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This is just something to support our right to life. And I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people are opposed to it. The health care reform bill is getting quite a bit of positive support from most of the people on campus. I've only seen a few people that are opposed. If you are surprised that people are against it than you have quite a bit of reading to do. Universal health care if a absolutely terrible idea. I could easily look up numerous references from other countries saying how this type of health care is terrible for a any nation. People have to wait in lines, they are put on waiting list. People from Canada come to the United States and pay out of their own pockets to have surgeries that they would otherwise have to wait for in Canada. The elderly are losing their rights and their money because they will have to be judged based on their age and health condition to see whether or not they can have a surgery that they want or need. It is based on what you put into society and many elderly don't make that cut. I have a friend who's 7 year old son has cancer and he's been keeping up with the news over this and he is scared to death to see what is going to happen to his son's care. The whole quality of care is going to be affected by this. I doubt that they would deny children the right to be covered. And I'm also guessing that the Canadians who come to the US for surgeries have plenty of money. I've heard all sorts of reactions about it. I was talking with some Canadians in another guild I'm in to find out what they thought about it. Both of them said that they liked their health care system in general, but they wished that it was better managed like in Europe. It was something about the government being inefficient with something, and having outside regulation on something. I have to check the posts. One person even said they he was wondering why we didn't do something like this sooner. @Green - They only passed it in one house? eek But how can they even say that it passed if it didn't pass in both houses? (I didn't pay very close attention in Government either.) The younger people are, the more they are not going to understand the system until they have to deal with it more. They passed it in the House first and then it went to the Senate. Now both have passed it and now the states are turning against it.
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:50 am
shadowflameguardian lilchibiusa shadowflameguardian lilchibiusa How is it unconstitutional? Don't we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This is just something to support our right to life. And I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people are opposed to it. The health care reform bill is getting quite a bit of positive support from most of the people on campus. I've only seen a few people that are opposed. If you are surprised that people are against it than you have quite a bit of reading to do. Universal health care if a absolutely terrible idea. I could easily look up numerous references from other countries saying how this type of health care is terrible for a any nation. People have to wait in lines, they are put on waiting list. People from Canada come to the United States and pay out of their own pockets to have surgeries that they would otherwise have to wait for in Canada. The elderly are losing their rights and their money because they will have to be judged based on their age and health condition to see whether or not they can have a surgery that they want or need. It is based on what you put into society and many elderly don't make that cut. I have a friend who's 7 year old son has cancer and he's been keeping up with the news over this and he is scared to death to see what is going to happen to his son's care. The whole quality of care is going to be affected by this. I doubt that they would deny children the right to be covered. And I'm also guessing that the Canadians who come to the US for surgeries have plenty of money. I've heard all sorts of reactions about it. I was talking with some Canadians in another guild I'm in to find out what they thought about it. Both of them said that they liked their health care system in general, but they wished that it was better managed like in Europe. It was something about the government being inefficient with something, and having outside regulation on something. I have to check the posts. One person even said they he was wondering why we didn't do something like this sooner. @Green - They only passed it in one house? eek But how can they even say that it passed if it didn't pass in both houses? (I didn't pay very close attention in Government either.) The younger people are, the more they are not going to understand the system until they have to deal with it more. They passed it in the House first and then it went to the Senate. Now both have passed it and now the states are turning against it. So it was passed legally and through the proper channels?
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:59 pm
It depends on who you ask. Yes it was passed by the House and the Senate. However, it is rumored that several of the politicians voted for it because they were threatened by other representatives.
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:01 pm
Dunno, didn't really like the sound of the new healthcare plan, but figured wait to see what happens, if nothing else, we can always vote it out in November... Anyway, my aunt sent me this in an email about the healthcare plan, take a look and see what you think.
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dewshine_angel Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:33 pm
so yeah I just took that and I am going to still have to pay 30% out of pocket which is what I pay now. Nice to know that part didn't change, not!
And of course it doesn't sound like the new health care bill they are not going to let you know that negatives until after.
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:36 pm
Dunno, either way, for now my situation doesn't change any, according to what my aunt understood about it, this bill was supposedly to make healthcare more affordable for low income families that have trouble affording it in the first place.
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dewshine_angel Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:08 am
well first off, every lower income family I know right now is on state assistance already. As for the rest of them, the money has to come from somewhere.
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:02 pm
shadowflameguardian well first off, every lower income family I know right now is on state assistance already. As for the rest of them, the money has to come from somewhere.
This is also an important point.
Low income families already have government assistance with health care. Nobody is dying on the streets. If you show up to an emergency room without health care, they have to help you.
Those who can afford health care have the freedom to pick and chose which health care they wish to purchase. This is good because it means that the health care companies have an incentive to provide good care to their customers.
For example:
John has health care with insurance company Red, and Christie has health care with insurance company Blue. John's health care includes generous benefits, a sensible payment plan, and doctors that have genuine interest in their patients. Christie's company, however, does not allow her to choose her own doctor, and its benefits are not that great.
When Christie speaks with John, or sees that John's health care is better than hers, Christie leaves Blue for Red.
Multiply the amount of people who leave Blue for red. Blue sees that it is suffering a loss of business ($$$) due to Red. Plainly speaking, Red is better. It is able to be better because there are less restrictions and laws over how it is to run is business and how it is regulated. So Blue needs to up it's game in order to compete with Red. Blue has to start offering better benefits and the option for patients to chose their own doctors.
This helps everyone. The people still in Blue are better taken care of, and Blue is still making money and actively competing with Red.
Government health care is going to cost us millions (maybe even billions) of dollars that WE DO NOT HAVE. Duh. These politicians are braindead. WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY. It doesn't exist.
Who is going to pay for this stuff? Well, they have to get the money from somewhere, so from where, from who will they get it? The answer is us: they're gonna put horrific taxes on us, the people, the public, to pay for this health care (sound familiar?). So that means less money for people to be able to pay for their own health insurance. Over time, people will be essentially forced to accept government health care because they cannot afford to purchase their preferred health care because they are being taxed beyond their means.
In addition, the health care bill imposes unreasonable taxes on the insurance companies, which cripples their ability to provide more service for less money. It is, essentially, not playing fair. Imagine if the referee were allowed to play in the football game. He's going to rule in favor of himself every time there is a fowl or a penalty. The other team and other players are subject to do what he says; to play by his rules, for he makes up the rules, so to speak; he is the keeper of the rulebook and the one who judges on the rules. So the competition dies. There is no longer a football match, only people running around pretending to play football while the referee decides the outcome.
Lastly, the penalties the government will require for companies who do not provide health insurance for their employees is ludicrously low. The companies are going to weigh the cost of providing-health-insurance-for-all-employees with the cost of not-providing-health-insurance-and-paying-the-government-fines. Guess which one is going to cost less?
So when employers don't provide health insurance for employees, the employees will have to fall back onto the government plan.
With the new government health plan, people who do not chose to either purchase health care or go with the government health care are fined.
They are fined for not having health care. The absurdity of this defies and insults the dignity of common sense.
Think about that for a moment. Don't be fooled by the pretty package of health care. Candy given to you in poison isn't a treat. Likewise, this health care plan, even if it were intrinsically good, is being force-fed to us in an extremely unhealthy, deeply concerning manner.
You might say, "Well, fining people who don't have health insurance is for their own good." But this is a violation of the all-important founding principle of our country: freedom. What about the right to make your own decisions regarding your fate (provided that you are not physically harming others and thus imposing on their freedom)?
And how will the government know if I don't have health care? Do they intend to go through my private records, harass me until I tell them, arrest me if I don't? I really hope they're bluffing about this whole fine thing. But I doubt it.
Ultimately, this health care bill is not about health care. It's about the government gaining an ungodly amount of control over our lives. If they can control us, then they have no reason to fear us.
"People should not fear their government; their government should fear the people." ~ V, V for Vendetta
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:01 pm
AMEN, Green! I've been following this whole debate from the beginning, and I've been afraid to say anything because I'm just absolutely awful at political debates (or any debates whatsoever, really!). But for a long time, I've been thinking exactly the way you and Celtic do about the whole thing; I just didn't know how to express it. (Plus I'm a TOTAL coward because I hate, hate, hate getting into arguments.) You've explained it way better than I ever could have. Well said!
I realize that a lot of people will pull out surveys from other countries and say that people in countries with a lot of government services rate themselves as happier than people in countries with fewer government programs, but I dunno. I still say that freedom is the most important thing. If you don't have that, you don't have anything, and you have no chance to make your situation better. I know I don't have any real answers to the whole healthcare thing (or poverty, or world hunger, or any of the other major issues that plague national and world politics and have a tendency to cause arguments among even the closest of friends), but I honestly don't think government intervention into every problem is going to solve any of it; this kind of approach often creates more problems than it solves. Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm going to shut up now before my ignorance starts to show. (I'm really bad at debates.) wink redface
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:47 pm
People are fined for not having insurance? eek That's ridiculous! I'm all in favor of aiding the poor, but it seems like they weren't thinking too clearly when they came up with that bit. xp
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:56 pm
Mademoiselle Alvinette AMEN, Green! I've been following this whole debate from the beginning, and I've been afraid to say anything because I'm just absolutely awful at political debates (or any debates whatsoever, really!). But for a long time, I've been thinking exactly the way you and Celtic do about the whole thing; I just didn't know how to express it. (Plus I'm a TOTAL coward because I hate, hate, hate getting into arguments.) You've explained it way better than I ever could have. Well said! I realize that a lot of people will pull out surveys from other countries and say that people in countries with a lot of government services rate themselves as happier than people in countries with fewer government programs, but I dunno. I still say that freedom is the most important thing. If you don't have that, you don't have anything, and you have no chance to make your situation better. I know I don't have any real answers to the whole healthcare thing (or poverty, or world hunger, or any of the other major issues that plague national and world politics and have a tendency to cause arguments among even the closest of friends), but I honestly don't think government intervention into every problem is going to solve any of it; this kind of approach often creates more problems than it solves. Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm going to shut up now before my ignorance starts to show. (I'm really bad at debates.) wink redface Well I am glad that you put your two cents in and I like the way you put it. Government intervetion isn't going to solve every problem.
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:30 pm
I'm just really heartened that there are at least two people out there who agree with me. I'm a grad student in history at a public university, so I'm usually grossly outnumbered. wink
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:30 pm
@ Alvinette: Thanks for joining in! You are most welcome here to express your opinions, you know that! We are fortunate that everyone in this guild is considerate and open-minded.
I can sympathize with your shyness about speaking out against your peers and putting yourself out there for criticism and even dislike. I feel like that all the time, believe it or not. I just got to a point where I couldn't take it any more! But it never gets any easier.
What I found in college was, even though people disagreed with me, they still liked me because I did nothing that could allow them to dislike me. I was polite, smiled, and tried not to yell and raise my voice. The result was that people liked me regardless, and the people who wanted to dislike me because of my opinions couldn't find a good reason to without being hypocrites.
It is really important, though, that we make ourselves heard. Imagine if you were at a trial for murder, but there was one witness who knew you weren't guilty. The witness was afraid to speak out for fear of being ostracized and even threatened. But as long as he kept silent, he knew he was sending you, an innocent person, to death. In a sense, speaking out about politics is just as dire a situation.
And don't worry about feeling that you are bad at debates. People can't argue with facts. If you show them the facts, then you've done all you can. That's why I included a link to the actual bill in the original post to this thread.
@ chibi: I'll try to find where in the bill it talks about fining people for opting out of heath insurance. c:
@ shadowflame: Government intervention has shown time and time again to actually make things worse. I mean, what does the government do that actually flows smoothly and in a timely manner and doesn't take obscene amounts of paperwork and ridiculous bureaucratic maneuvers? rolleyes Red tape, anyone! Ugh! xp
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