Being good just with items?

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Sure there's a skill to them, just not a lot.

Also an opinion.

All I'm saying is: if you people continue to complain about losing to people using items, then go ahead and master using items.... see how "easy" it is for yourselves.

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Well, first off, I never complained about losing to people using items.

Secondly... do you really think that I haven't already practiced with items? Just FYI, I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I have an easy time using items, I just can't stand when a starman/mushroom drops on my opponent, or a bomb/poison mushroom lands in front of me, etc, so I don't use items. Yes, I can just turn those specific items off, but like I said, I prefer items off. I can play with items on no problem, I just have more fun with items off. That's all there is to it.

If you prefer items off, that's fine. What I'm going on and on about is this feeling of condescension that seems to be floating around for people who prefer items being on.

It sounds like you know how to use items, but not to fully utilize them. I want to try and master the way of items and figure out how to use each one to the fullest of their abilities.

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.

Meh, see, I don't like that. The game becomes a scramble for the better items. You can word it any way you want; call it a strategy, a technique, an art, but that doesn't change what it is: a scramble for the items.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.

Meh, see, I don't like that. The game becomes a scramble for the better items. You can word it any way you want; call it a strategy, a technique, an art, but that doesn't change what it is: a scramble for the items.

Well if we're going to play some word games here, then fine
I prefer items over "roll hit roll roll hit smash roll smash roll hit roll roll jump dodge roll"

As far as fighting games go, Smash Bros. is pretty simple. That's not a bad thing, but it means that there's not much to the game once you take items away or only choose the simplest of stages.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

I'm really not trying to sound condescending at all, but with you're constant reminding me that I don't know how to use items correctly, I can't help but get a condescending vibe off of you. Why would you assume that I don't know how to use items correctly? I fully understand how each items works, what they're good for, how to use them, etc. I just don't prefer them on. I'm not going to start playing with items on nonstop now just because you want me to, or because you don't *think* that I know how to use them. I'm telling you right now that I do. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: I play with items on a lot. All of my friends prefer them on, so we all play with them on. Just when I'm playing by myself, or when it comes time for any sort of competitive play, I turn them off.

PS: I can't help but chuckle at "the way of the items." So corny xp

I just can't get over your comment of "any scrub can be good with items. In contrast, you can wipe the floor with any scrub by using items.

I just can't stand the anti-item sentiments shared by so many. Playing without items is like playing only half the game. Matches just aren't as thrilling without them.

Fine, I'll accept the fact that you prefer no items, but at least understand the skill involved in using them. Since you play with items when you're with friends, I expected you to understand at least that much.

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.

Meh, see, I don't like that. The game becomes a scramble for the better items. You can word it any way you want; call it a strategy, a technique, an art, but that doesn't change what it is: a scramble for the items.

Well if we're going to play some word games here, then fine
I prefer items over "roll hit roll roll hit smash roll smash roll hit roll roll jump dodge roll"

As far as fighting games go, Smash Bros. is pretty simple. That's not a bad thing, but it means that there's not much to the game once you take items away or only choose the simplest of stages.

Yes, I guess it's just a coincidence that the simplest game is also the most popular professional tournament fighter.
Also, I guess all the 30+ minute tutorial videos are just jokes. Along with the 250+ pages of advanced technique discussion and discovery.
But no, you're right. It's just hitting, rolling, and smashing. All the other techniques are lies.

I'm going to be honest with you, that statement just lost you a lot of credibility. I'm not trying to sound mean or condescending, and I can't stress that enough. I don't want to insult you, and I'm sincerely sorry if I did, but I'm just being honest.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.

Meh, see, I don't like that. The game becomes a scramble for the better items. You can word it any way you want; call it a strategy, a technique, an art, but that doesn't change what it is: a scramble for the items.

Well if we're going to play some word games here, then fine
I prefer items over "roll hit roll roll hit smash roll smash roll hit roll roll jump dodge roll"

As far as fighting games go, Smash Bros. is pretty simple. That's not a bad thing, but it means that there's not much to the game once you take items away or only choose the simplest of stages.

Yes, I guess it's just a coincidence that the simplest game is also the most popular professional tournament fighter.
Also, I guess all the 30+ minute tutorial videos are just jokes. Along with the 250+ pages of advanced technique discussion and discovery.
But no, you're right. It's just hitting, rolling, and smashing. All the other techniques are lies.

I'm going to be honest with you, that statement just lost you a lot of credibility. I'm not trying to sound mean or condescending, and I can't stress that enough. I don't want to insult you, and I'm sincerely sorry if I did, but I'm just being honest.

You can make a ton of videos on stupid little tricks and glitches in the game, but it doesn't say much for the actual complexity of the game. How many people actually make use of a lot of these little obscure tricks? Most people roll, hit, jump, etc.

It takes practice, I understand, but not as much as you've said.

Credibility means nothing from you, just so you know. I hardly even know you. You lack credibility from me due to the fact that you put down items so much, dismissing the actual skill involved. Sorry, but I cannot accept that somebody can simply become an expert at items by playing a few times. If that's the case, then why is there such a large gap in expertise in Mario Kart? (which, by the way, is another game that is essentially ruined and neutered when you remove items)

I'm not saying that the game is bad because it's simple, or else I wouldn't bother discussing it here. It's an amazing game with a lot of strategy, but without items in the mix you've essentially cut the strategy in half. I don't care if there's a lot of techniques, you can waste your time mastering something useless that only works 1/8 of the time... that's the sign of an idiot, not an expert.  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

By that, I'm just using that luck scenario again. Something like this:
Round starts. Starman spawns on scrub. Scrub gets multiple free hits, assuming he knows how to get close to someone. Golden hammer spawns has the opponent is avoiding the scrub, now the scrub can get it no problem. Scrub gets golden hammer, kills his opponent. Opponent comes back, starts beating on the scrub. Scrub moves away, opponent dash attacks. Bomb spawns, opponent dies.
I know that there's only a chance of this kind of thing happening, but it does happen enough.

The option was given to turn off items for a reason, playing with no items is part of the game. Once again, saying it's more thrilling with items is an opinion. An opinion that I, amongst other people, obviously don't share with you.

I agree that there is a skill to using items, but not as much as you claim.

And I'm suggesting that it can work in just the opposite manner, and it's just as likely to do so. Luck is not a real concept, probability would be a better word to use.
But let's say there are three people and a Golden Hammer spawns (it takes a few seconds for the hammer to come out fully). You'll need to beat people away to get to it and when you do it successfully, to the victor goes the spoils. It's a reward aspect to the game in that manner.

Items take plenty of skill to use, at least in comparison to fighting with no items.

Meh, see, I don't like that. The game becomes a scramble for the better items. You can word it any way you want; call it a strategy, a technique, an art, but that doesn't change what it is: a scramble for the items.

Well if we're going to play some word games here, then fine
I prefer items over "roll hit roll roll hit smash roll smash roll hit roll roll jump dodge roll"

As far as fighting games go, Smash Bros. is pretty simple. That's not a bad thing, but it means that there's not much to the game once you take items away or only choose the simplest of stages.

Yes, I guess it's just a coincidence that the simplest game is also the most popular professional tournament fighter.
Also, I guess all the 30+ minute tutorial videos are just jokes. Along with the 250+ pages of advanced technique discussion and discovery.
But no, you're right. It's just hitting, rolling, and smashing. All the other techniques are lies.

I'm going to be honest with you, that statement just lost you a lot of credibility. I'm not trying to sound mean or condescending, and I can't stress that enough. I don't want to insult you, and I'm sincerely sorry if I did, but I'm just being honest.

You can make a ton of videos on stupid little tricks and glitches in the game, but it doesn't say much for the actual complexity of the game. How many people actually make use of a lot of these little obscure tricks? Most people roll, hit, jump, etc.

It takes practice, I understand, but not as much as you've said.

Credibility means nothing from you, just so you know. I hardly even know you. You lack credibility from me due to the fact that you put down items so much, dismissing the actual skill involved. Sorry, but I cannot accept that somebody can simply become an expert at items by playing a few times. If that's the case, then why is there such a large gap in expertise in Mario Kart? (which, by the way, is another game that is essentially ruined and neutered when you remove items)

I'm not saying that the game is bad because it's simple, or else I wouldn't bother discussing it here. It's an amazing game with a lot of strategy, but without items in the mix you've essentially cut the strategy in half. I don't care if there's a lot of techniques, you can waste your time mastering something useless that only works 1/8 of the time... that's the sign of an idiot, not an expert.

You seem like someone who has never actually seen the game played competitively. These "obscure, little" tricks are the cornerstone of competitive smash. When have you ever seen a professional not make use of any of the advanced techniques? Never. Professionals don't just "hit, roll, jump." That's an extremely dumb thing to say. Someone who can't use the advanced techniques effectively will never be on the same level as someone who does. If you can't accept that fact, then you'll never take your skills to the next level.

How much practice does it take? Well, in Melee I still haven't mastered every technique. After years of practicing, I'm still not consistent with some techniques, wavelanding being a great example for me. In Brawl, I'm still practicing a lot to get down some of the techniques (super armor, alternating grabs especially). I would love to see how many of these techniques you can actually use, and use effectively.

And credibility does matter between us. We're arguing about something. Before that last statement you made, I was giving you plenty of credibility, giving you some word in the argument. After that statement, it became evident that you have never seen what professional Smash is like. Then after this statement, it became even more clear, especially with the "How many people actually make use of a lot of these little obscure tricks? Most people roll, hit, jump, etc." statement. That is so false that it's not even funny. You show me one successful professional who doesn't use any advanced techniques, PLEASE.

Before I go off on you for calling advanced techniques useless, can you give me examples of which ones are useless?

Oh yeah...
"Sorry, but I cannot accept that somebody can simply become an expert at items by playing a few times."
Apparently you can't read very well, so I'll say it one more time. I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I understand how each items works, and how to use it effectively. And I still believe that there is more skill involved without items then with them. No, I'm not just saying that to prove a point, I'm just being honest.  

[Mokie7]

Melomaniacal

You seem like someone who has never actually seen the game played competitively. These "obscure, little" tricks are the cornerstone of competitive smash. When have you ever seen a professional not make use of any of the advanced techniques? Never. Professionals don't just "hit, roll, jump." That's an extremely dumb thing to say. Someone who can't use the advanced techniques effectively will never be on the same level as someone who does. If you can't accept that fact, then you'll never take your skills to the next level.

How much practice does it take? Well, in Melee I still haven't mastered every technique. After years of practicing, I'm still not consistent with some techniques, wavelanding being a great example for me. In Brawl, I'm still practicing a lot to get down some of the techniques (super armor, alternating grabs especially). I would love to see how many of these techniques you can actually use, and use effectively.

And credibility does matter between us. We're arguing about something. Before that last statement you made, I was giving you plenty of credibility, giving you some word in the argument. After that statement, it became evident that you have never seen what professional Smash is like. Then after this statement, it became even more clear, especially with the "How many people actually make use of a lot of these little obscure tricks? Most people roll, hit, jump, etc." statement. That is so false that it's not even funny. You show me one successful professional who doesn't use any advanced techniques, PLEASE.

Before I go off on you for calling advanced techniques useless, can you give me examples of which ones are useless?

Oh yeah...
"Sorry, but I cannot accept that somebody can simply become an expert at items by playing a few times."
Apparently you can't read very well, so I'll say it one more time. I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I understand how each items works, and how to use it effectively. And I still believe that there is more skill involved without items then with them. No, I'm not just saying that to prove a point, I'm just being honest.

First off, I AM at their level. You're assuming that I'm some sort of noob at the game, but I'm not. Many of those "advanced techniques" are not entirely advanced nor are they that useful. They're easy to counter if you know what you're doing.

Ok, you spent all that time wavedashing in Melee but now you can't in Brawl.... SMAAAART, EH? No thanks, I'm not wasting my time learning these obscure little tricks and glitches, especially if there's a chance they'll be fixed by the time the next game comes out... I'm just gonna get my timing down better and improve myself that way. Learn to hit, dodge, smash, and retrieve items. I'm sorry that you need to justify all that time that you've wasted.

Oh no, you don't find me credible anymore... like I even give a crap! You lost credibility in my eyes when you said that "any scrub can beat you with items". Which, once again, makes me question the effectiveness of those "advanced techniques" that you so love. You can wipe the floor with most people unless items are used, then it's an even match? Sorry, but I don't believe it. If you're saying that items turn the tide of the match that much, then I was under the assumption that you'd be able to grab up any item and pretty much double your effectiveness at beating people. The fact that you blame items for losses means that you haven't effectively learned to utilize them... instead, you spent an obscene amount of time learning little tricks. You continue to say "I use items! they're easy to use!" yet you'll proclaim that your "advance techniques" are so useful yet you'll still lose to other people using items, especially those so-called "scrubs" that you were describing earlier.

Now, you've given me an assignment that I don't care to complete. I don't just watch competitive players for fun, nor do I care to know who they are. When I come across one, I play them and see what the outcome is. I don't take names or anything. Are you saying that there are professionals out there that people ACTUALLY know by name? What the hell kind of game even has those kinds of people? It's a video game, not a career.
You requested something completely ridiculous and, as such, I will not comply.

You also have no clarified what a "professional" is to you. If you're going to accept professionals who make use of items, then I'll say "me".  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

Mokie7

Melomaniacal

You seem like someone who has never actually seen the game played competitively. These "obscure, little" tricks are the cornerstone of competitive smash. When have you ever seen a professional not make use of any of the advanced techniques? Never. Professionals don't just "hit, roll, jump." That's an extremely dumb thing to say. Someone who can't use the advanced techniques effectively will never be on the same level as someone who does. If you can't accept that fact, then you'll never take your skills to the next level.

How much practice does it take? Well, in Melee I still haven't mastered every technique. After years of practicing, I'm still not consistent with some techniques, wavelanding being a great example for me. In Brawl, I'm still practicing a lot to get down some of the techniques (super armor, alternating grabs especially). I would love to see how many of these techniques you can actually use, and use effectively.

And credibility does matter between us. We're arguing about something. Before that last statement you made, I was giving you plenty of credibility, giving you some word in the argument. After that statement, it became evident that you have never seen what professional Smash is like. Then after this statement, it became even more clear, especially with the "How many people actually make use of a lot of these little obscure tricks? Most people roll, hit, jump, etc." statement. That is so false that it's not even funny. You show me one successful professional who doesn't use any advanced techniques, PLEASE.

Before I go off on you for calling advanced techniques useless, can you give me examples of which ones are useless?

Oh yeah...
"Sorry, but I cannot accept that somebody can simply become an expert at items by playing a few times."
Apparently you can't read very well, so I'll say it one more time. I play with items on PLENTY, I wouldn't be saying it's easy to use them correctly if I didn't know how to. I'm not ignorant. I say it's easy because I think it's easy. I understand how each items works, and how to use it effectively. And I still believe that there is more skill involved without items then with them. No, I'm not just saying that to prove a point, I'm just being honest.

First off, I AM at their level. You're assuming that I'm some sort of noob at the game, but I'm not. Many of those "advanced techniques" are not entirely advanced nor are they that useful. They're easy to counter if you know what you're doing.

Ok, you spent all that time wavedashing in Melee but now you can't in Brawl.... SMAAAART, EH? No thanks, I'm not wasting my time learning these obscure little tricks and glitches, especially if there's a chance they'll be fixed by the time the next game comes out... I'm just gonna get my timing down better and improve myself that way. Learn to hit, dodge, smash, and retrieve items. I'm sorry that you need to justify all that time that you've wasted.

Oh no, you don't find me credible anymore... like I even give a crap! You lost credibility in my eyes when you said that "any scrub can beat you with items". Which, once again, makes me question the effectiveness of those "advanced techniques" that you so love. You can wipe the floor with most people unless items are used, then it's an even match? Sorry, but I don't believe it. If you're saying that items turn the tide of the match that much, then I was under the assumption that you'd be able to grab up any item and pretty much double your effectiveness at beating people. The fact that you blame items for losses means that you haven't effectively learned to utilize them... instead, you spent an obscene amount of time learning little tricks. You continue to say "I use items! they're easy to use!" yet you'll proclaim that your "advance techniques" are so useful yet you'll still lose to other people using items, especially those so-called "scrubs" that you were describing earlier.

Now, you've given me an assignment that I don't care to complete. I don't just watch competitive players for fun, nor do I care to know who they are. When I come across one, I play them and see what the outcome is. I don't take names or anything. Are you saying that there are professionals out there that people ACTUALLY know by name? What the hell kind of game even has those kinds of people? It's a video game, not a career.
You requested something completely ridiculous and, as such, I will not comply.

First off, these techniques are not obscure. They are not useless, all they do is improve your skills. Is it a waste of time? No. Melee is still played competitively. I think spending all my time learning to wavedash in Melee payed off. $500 to be exact. Waste of time? I think not. You're basically saying that it's not worth becoming good at the game because another will come out. That's dumb. I don't think I need to explain why that's dumb.

I'm sorry, but you're just really ignorant. You're saying these techniques are useless, when you just admitted to not knowing them all, or how to do them. So why should your word count in this argument? I have experience on both sides of the argument, you only have experience on the side you're arguing for.

Not once did I say I lose to people with items. I just said that with items, you give scrubs a better chance of winning not because of their skill, but because of the probability of a starman spawning on them, etc. I don't like to rely on items to win.

Learning to hit, dodge, and jump, are the BASICS of Smash. They are the BASIC parts that EVERYONE knows how to do, and EVERYONE is good at. Just because you can dodge, hit, roll, and jump, doesn't mean you're good at the game. It really doesn't mean anything. Anyone can do that stuff. Just like anyone can grab a starman and kill you, or ANYONE can grab a golden hammer and get a kill. Not everyone can effectively use the advanced techniques, which is why there is a gap in skill levels. If you need to actually "spend time learning how to hit, dodge, smash" then... that's really bad. Those are the BASICS. You shouldn't need to spend so much time learning those.

You're right and wrong about it being just a game. Yes, it is just a game. But there are such things as professional gamers who make thousands upon thousands of dollars by winning tournaments. It is a game just like, say, bowling is a game. But like bowling, there are leagues and tournaments where people play for money. MLG? Major League Gaming? Surely you've heard of that.

I think there is a reason why all of the best players agreed on no items competitively.

But still, what I really want answered is what advanced techniques you find to be useless and why. Do you think wavedashing is useless? Do you know what it does? How about in Brawl, do you think super armor is useless? Do you know what it does?

And I qualify someone as a professional if they make money off the game, travel to tournaments. Since professionally items are turned off, I'd qualify you as casual. Casual competitive.  

[Einherjar O D I N]

All right, everyone calm the hell down.


The simple fact of the matter is, in melee, if you didn't use advanced techs, you were gonna have a HARD FREAKING TIME beating anyone who did. Semi vs Delorian. End of story. It's gonna be the same way for Brawl if and when that happens. The game is very balanced right now, in that there are no techs to really utilize (not many anyway).

This topic was about items, if I remember correctly. Items take away from the balance of the game, and add too much of a random factor. Ex: Capsule appears and drops on your head, which promptly explodes.


I hate to do this, but this topic needs to straighten out, or I'm gonna start warning people, and after that, bans. Capice? There's a difference between talking/debate and internet flaming. This is getting dangerously close to the latter. stare  

[A Pharmaceutical Bandit]

SilentBlackTiger

All right, everyone calm the hell down.


The simple fact of the matter is, in melee, if you didn't use advanced techs, you were gonna have a HARD FREAKING TIME beating anyone who did. Semi vs Delorian. End of story. It's gonna be the same way for Brawl if and when that happens. The game is very balanced right now, in that there are no techs to really utilize (not many anyway).

This topic was about items, if I remember correctly. Items take away from the balance of the game, and add too much of a random factor. Ex: Capsule appears and drops on your head, which promptly explodes.


I hate to do this, but this topic needs to straighten out, or I'm gonna start warning people, and after that, bans. Capice? There's a difference between talking/debate and internet flaming. This is getting dangerously close to the latter. stare

You're right. I wasn't trying to heat this up, but it looks like it was imminent. But in our defense, there really isn't any flaming yet, xp
But yeah, I apologize.  

[Lahlooooouh]

Take this for instance you guys. My friend is better than me. If we play with four lives I can usually take 3 of his lives and then weaken him a bit in his fourth, but then he usually wins in a close match. I will also play him with items or without them. We mix it up.

When we play with items sometimes during that last life I will all of a sudden get a pokeball that has something incredibly powerful and then even though he has more skill/experience than me he will lose the match, due to some over powered pokemon. I know how to use items and throw them. I am actually not bad with items. But the thing I don't like is how sometimes there are weird situations with them due to randomness.

I know everyone has the same odds with items, however, when it comes down to it some people just get really lucky.

I do think that there are some items that are well balanced and fair, but that is why when we play we get rid of certain items. Such as the heart and hammer. We keep the items that require more skill and competency of usage.

I just wrote a lot. xd