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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:32 am
dboyzero Simply put, there doesn't. It's a common Judeo-Islamo-Christian belief that the Lord God Almighty, being a perfect entity who is both omniscient and omnipotent, would both have and execute a flawless, master plan for the universe. All things are the result of his master will, and unfold according to it, including all warfare, rape, judgment, and the devil's work as well. But, there doesn't have to be a master plan. Assuming such a being exists, it's perfectly feasible and just as likely that he (or she, or it, or something completely beyond our comprehension) is content to just sit back and let things happen as they will. ah, but the question of this thread is about gods will vs free will. so if there's some master plan that includes warfare, rape, murder, etc.. well then he cant really punish those who carry out his master plan and then nor should we. mind you, I dont believe in a god and one of the reasons for this is the very argument above and all the other contradictions I see in organized religion. I fail to understand the logic. I for one dont believe there necessarily has to be a watchmaker.
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:25 am
I think the idea of the free will is almost screwed nowadays anyways, since the media pretty much makes the decisions for 99 % of people anyways, but in regards to gods will, and no offense to religion, since i know more about it that most preists out there, but i look at it like i make my own decisions, and i refuse to obey the will of a thing that i cant see, makes sme feel kinda like big brother, slave to the king, im not competent enough, kinda thing, although i do try to obey the RULES of god minus the occasional slip up (ya right im horrible) and free will isnt free anyways so it makes me respect and appreciate it more anyways.... hope i didnt offend anyone.
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:41 am
lionydas I think the idea of the free will is almost screwed nowadays anyways, since the media pretty much makes the decisions for 99 % of people anyways, but in regards to gods will, and no offense to religion, since i know more about it that most preists out there, but i look at it like i make my own decisions, and i refuse to obey the will of a thing that i cant see, makes sme feel kinda like big brother, slave to the king, im not competent enough, kinda thing, although i do try to obey the RULES of god minus the occasional slip up (ya right im horrible) and free will isnt free anyways so it makes me respect and appreciate it more anyways.... hope i didnt offend anyone. I'm not offended in the least (couldnt be, since I dont believe such a being exists), but I dont understand. gods will is gods rules. and everyone slips up sometimes, so no real worries there so long as you're not like.. murdering people.. smile
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:17 pm
xd I do believe this is one of the first topics I've ever created that got ANY feedback whatsoever!!!! I'm so happy I could do a jig (assuming i could learn to dance... and it doesn't look like that's going to happen... just imagine I'm actually jigging)
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:31 pm
unrequietedCat xd I do believe this is one of the first topics I've ever created that got ANY feedback whatsoever!!!! I'm so happy I could do a jig (assuming i could learn to dance... and it doesn't look like that's going to happen... just imagine I'm actually jigging) rofl!! and it happens to be a topic that's not been played out a zillion times in this forum biggrin *imagines Cat gettin' jiggy with it*
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:06 am
Well, In my edumacated opinion, I believe (pretty much know, in fact) that most of the stories in the Bible are simplified (which means a lot of exageration) so the simpler people of the time could understand it. Like with adam and eve. Who says the seven days were our days? each day could be like, a trillion years, especially since she lives for forever, so days would naturally pass slower to her, or at least be longer. As for the topic of free will, I believe that It's impossible to tell the future, so the deal with "Divine Plan" is just completely wrong, and I have no idea why anyone ever said that...except maybe a miscomseption on what it is that God actually does.
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:12 pm
Just to note - this topic has been discussed before in a couple of different threads, but because they're so old I don't really expect people to go and look for them. I've adopted a policy of "Socratic Forgetfulness" in this forum, meaning I'll point out something that has been mentioned in a previous thread (since it's rather unlikely anyone else knows about such threads), but I'll still let repeat threads exist, to a point. Quote: ah, but the question of this thread is about gods will vs free will. so if there's some master plan that includes warfare, rape, murder, etc.. well then he cant really punish those who carry out his master plan and then nor should we. On the contrary, simply because he knows we're going to do it doesn't make the act any less wrong. Also, it is most likely that even the punishment is part of his master plan, and therefore must be followed through.
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:09 am
dboyzero Just to note - this topic has been discussed before in a couple of different threads, but because they're so old I don't really expect people to go and look for them. I've adopted a policy of "Socratic Forgetfulness" in this forum, meaning I'll point out something that has been mentioned in a previous thread (since it's rather unlikely anyone else knows about such threads), but I'll still let repeat threads exist, to a point. Quote: ah, but the question of this thread is about gods will vs free will. so if there's some master plan that includes warfare, rape, murder, etc.. well then he cant really punish those who carry out his master plan and then nor should we. what the hell kind of "loving" "forgiving" father-like god is that?!?!?! to create someone for the purpose of having him disobey him, and hurt other people, so that he will punish them? sounds sadistic to me. I cannot believe such a being exists. talk2hand
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:16 pm
Remember that any deity that exists is privy to information far beyond the understandings of simpler beings like you or me. He could very well still love and forgive us for following his bigger plan, but his own motivations (assuming that he still is a benevolent and omnipotent being) are towards something far bigger than the punishment of wrongdoings and such. The purpose of the person who sins is not actually to sin, but to play the part they are supposed to play for a greater good. Perhaps through their sin and punishment, it inspires the people they influenced to become better and closer to the Lord. Or perhaps his sin was required to be used as an example on Earth of the downward trend of society, allowing us as humans to realize that we're heading in the wrong direction.
Also remember that we know absolutely nothing about the next life whatsoever. It could very well be that there is no hell or place of eternal punishment, and that after one's part is done on Earth, we all head on up to hang with the big G (I think this is a derivative of a Jewish belief, but I'm not certain).
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:41 pm
dboyzero Remember that any deity that exists is privy to information far beyond the understandings of simpler beings like you or me. He could very well still love and forgive us for following his bigger plan, but his own motivations (assuming that he still is a benevolent and omnipotent being) are towards something far bigger than the punishment of wrongdoings and such. The purpose of the person who sins is not actually to sin, but to play the part they are supposed to play for a greater good. Perhaps through their sin and punishment, it inspires the people they influenced to become better and closer to the Lord. Or perhaps his sin was required to be used as an example on Earth of the downward trend of society, allowing us as humans to realize that we're heading in the wrong direction. Also remember that we know absolutely nothing about the next life whatsoever. It could very well be that there is no hell or place of eternal punishment, and that after one's part is done on Earth, we all head on up to hang with the big G (I think this is a derivative of a Jewish belief, but I'm not certain). yeah, I dont believe in a conscious deity period. I think it's humans trying to understand something totally beyond them slathered with a healthy dollop of wishful thinking. I'm heavily leaning towards Buddhism. it's a positive spiritual persuit w/o deity. way more acceptable to my psyche.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:34 pm
mmm....its a good point the one that has shown for the lady unrequitedcat.
cuz if we were fullfilling a "perfect plan" made by God, even if we think we have free will, we would only be doing things that were meant for us.
following this path, we could say that no one is guilty of anything or didnt win anything, cuz everything they made (evil or good) was gods wish by one reason or another. but if it i have to choose, ill keep the free will, cuz that means, that everything i have or am, is because of me, of my choices.
and that also means, we always can change. the thing here is i am a very retorted person in this way, as much as to think this:
maybe what im saying right now, maybe even our loudest yell of freedom could be nothing else than the fullfillment of a plan that someone else has for us.....which is creepy ^^U
so, did anyone understood anything or what i just wrote? sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:16 am
take a sociology course, and then you'll realize just how little we actually have a say in our own lives.
Religion and philosophy aside, we are INCREDIBLY influenced by the people around us and how we were brought up. Yes, we may feel like we're making our own decisions, but even those decisions made by "free will" are the result of a vast and complex psychology. Put any human being in the right circumstances, and you can get them to just about anything. Cases in point: The Milgram and Zambardo experiments on social authority and roles, the My Lai Massacre, the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, or any of the experiments done by the Nazis or the Japanese during WW2.
What all of these events have in common is the factor of X (the 'normal' person) being influenced by the factor of Y (the 'abnormal' conditions). The result was people doing things far different than they would ever do under 'normal' circumstances. Point is, even normal circumstances are cases where X is affected by Y, but no one notices because all the actions are expected and socially acceptable.
Still think you've got free will?
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:36 pm
i agree with you 100% unre but i have been to places no person should go to and i can tell you our perfect so call "plan" is a plan were allowed to make ourselves...
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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:09 pm
God gave us free will so that we can make choices good or bad. God knows what choices we are going to make even the bad ones.
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:18 pm
Something fairly common in Judeo-Christian religion is that good things come from the bad things. A good example is the story of Joseph. Became a slave, thrown in jail, then became next to Pharaoh. It is entirely possible for good things to come from bad things. Some people may not think this way, but petroleum technologies have helped us come along this last century. Sure, in modern times its bad, but we probably wouldn't have the means to contradict it's effect without it.
Another example comes from personal experience. During summer(in Florida), my air conditioner broke. It was down for 2/3 days. When it came back, I realized that feeling the breeze after 3 days of sweltering heat was better than having the air conditioner sustained that whole time. This brings into mind equivalent exchange. This topic is widely discussed in the anime FMA(Full Metal Alchemist, now that I think about it, he was only partially metal). Equivalent Exchange is the rule that you can't get something without giving up something, also likened to nothing's ever free.
More later.
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