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 Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:20 am
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Ebony the Peacian Insanity Dragonfly And I don`t see how my not watching any anime at all is different from my watching some on the interwebs.  ____It's different because you're watching something for which you would normally have to pay money to see. If you watched your anime in - don't take me wrong when I say this - the honest way, the industry would be making a profit off of it.
____It's easy to say, "Oh, well, when it's just me, it's not like I'm making a huge dent in the industry's profits on my own." Okay. That may be true. When millions of fans worldwide do the same thing, however, the industry suffers greatly, which is why I choose to buy what I read/watch or borrow it from friends who bought it.
If you had read my post, you would have realized that I'm not making the choice to take it for free instead of buying.
I'm taking it for free instead of not watching at all. And I don't see a difference for the people making and selling animes because I wouldn't buy one anyway- I'm not able! So- me watching off interwebs- profit from that- 0$. Me not watching anything because I'm being moral but I still don't have money to spend on animes- profit from that- still 0$!
I'm not making an "it's-just-me" argument. I'm making an It really doesn't make a cent of difference!
And... apologies... I ranted. Sorry for the snark involved.
Also, on the it's better from the real guys front- I realize that this is no reason to not buy them, but if they don't have a subtitles option on the legitimate shops, then there's an advantage to subs. It's not that they are a better translation. However (and I'm just throwing this out there so you can adress it because to be honest I don't agree with it as a reason, I just can't counter it for myself, and I'd like to have you do so because it's one of the only flaws in your beautiful argument...) I've found that in a lot of dubs the voices sound whiny and they mispronounce names. They sound like a bunch of brats. I hate it! Therefore subs are supreme over dubs and...
Oh, wait. Sorry, nevermind, I've address it for myself. Most translations have a sub option. However, there are exceptions- for example, Cardcaptor Sakura, in which the american version completely eliminated the gay boys in the background. (sakura's brother x the guy who turns into one of the card's defenders, or whatever. On the same level as Kero)
Also, My japanese friend tells me that it's only here that the industry is failing. Japan is still publishing lots, they just don't sell it over here. |
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:54 am
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Insanity Dragonfly Ebony the Peacian Insanity Dragonfly And I don`t see how my not watching any anime at all is different from my watching some on the interwebs.
____It's easy to say, "Oh, well, when it's just me, it's not like I'm making a huge dent in the industry's profits on my own." Okay. That may be true. When millions of fans worldwide do the same thing, however, the industry suffers greatly, which is why I choose to buy what I read/watch or borrow it from friends who bought it.If you had read my post, you would have realized that I'm not making the choice to take it for free instead of buying. I'm taking it for free instead of not watching at all. And I don't see a difference for the people making and selling animes because I wouldn't buy one anyway- I'm not able! So- me watching off interwebs- profit from that- 0$. Me not watching anything because I'm being moral but I still don't have money to spend on animes- profit from that- still 0$! I'm not making an "it's-just-me" argument. I'm making an It really doesn't make a cent of difference! And... apologies... I ranted. Sorry for the snark involved. Also, on the it's better from the real guys front- I realize that this is no reason to not buy them, but if they don't have a subtitles option on the legitimate shops, then there's an advantage to subs. It's not that they are a better translation. However (and I'm just throwing this out there so you can adress it because to be honest I don't agree with it as a reason, I just can't counter it for myself, and I'd like to have you do so because it's one of the only flaws in your beautiful argument...) I've found that in a lot of dubs the voices sound whiny and they mispronounce names. They sound like a bunch of brats. I hate it! Therefore subs are supreme over dubs and... Oh, wait. Sorry, nevermind, I've address it for myself. Most translations have a sub option. However, there are exceptions- for example, Cardcaptor Sakura, in which the american version completely eliminated the gay boys in the background. (sakura's brother x the guy who turns into one of the card's defenders, or whatever. On the same level as Kero) Also, My japanese friend tells me that it's only here that the industry is failing. Japan is still publishing lots, they just don't sell it over here.
And another thing. Are you're Japanese 'friends' manga artists? The famous manga artist Shinichi Watanabe (better known as 'Nabeshin') says that the industry IS suffering.
Oh, and your whole subtitle blah blah BS? Didn't even bother reading it. Keep those opinions to yourself, because I don't care at all. |
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:55 am
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:11 am
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Insanity Dragonfly If you had read my post, you would have realized that I'm not making the choice to take it for free instead of buying. I'm taking it for free instead of not watching at all. And I don't see a difference for the people making and selling animes because I wouldn't buy one anyway- I'm not able! So- me watching off interwebs- profit from that- 0$. Me not watching anything because I'm being moral but I still don't have money to spend on animes- profit from that- still 0$! I'm not making an "it's-just-me" argument. I'm making an It really doesn't make a cent of difference! And... apologies... I ranted. Sorry for the snark involved.
I did read your post. You're simply restating your original point. So I'm going to restate mine.
You watch anime online for free. You read manga online for free. --> The anime industry does not make a profit even though you are watching what took them time, money, and manpower to create.
You buy anime from legitimate sources. --> The anime industry does profit because they've entertained you in exchange for your money.
A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, and stealing by any other name is just as bad. You can go to your public library - which is totally free - and rent some great stuff. I rented Kiki's Delivery Service and other Miyazaki films at my public library and enjoyed them for a week before turning them back in. Not your style? You can tune in to Adult Swim or any other channel you may have that airs anime. Even here on your computer, on the official YouTube accounts of specific anime producers, you can find some fantastic stuff.
Look, there's just no excuse for stealing. I'm sorry.
Quote: Also, on the it's better from the real guys front- I realize that this is no reason to not buy them, but if they don't have a subtitles option on the legitimate shops, then there's an advantage to subs. It's not that they are a better translation. However (and I'm just throwing this out there so you can adress it because to be honest I don't agree with it as a reason, I just can't counter it for myself, and I'd like to have you do so because it's one of the only flaws in your beautiful argument...) I've found that in a lot of dubs the voices sound whiny and they mispronounce names. They sound like a bunch of brats. I hate it! Therefore subs are supreme over dubs and... Oh, wait. Sorry, nevermind, I've address it for myself. Most translations have a sub option. However, there are exceptions- for example, Cardcaptor Sakura, in which the american version completely eliminated the gay boys in the background. (sakura's brother x the guy who turns into one of the card's defenders, or whatever. On the same level as Kero)
Quote: Also, My japanese friend tells me that it's only here that the industry is failing. Japan is still publishing lots, they just don't sell it over here. |
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:20 am
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:55 pm
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1- I would like to remind you that on this website flaming isn't tolerated and that you yourself agreed to polite discussion. Therefore, please, I beg that you make yourself a little less bitchy about it. I'd be more inclined to listen, and more inclined to continue on the thread, if it didn't feel like you were systematically ignoring my reasonings and only attacking me with calling me a thief. Which, I must agree, I could be qualified as, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything I say.
2- As far as I can tell, and forgive me is I'm wrong, you are completely ignoring my point. I agree that buying anime from legitimate sources is MUCH better than reading online. But, is it any better than not reading at all, and not spreading their publicity for them, at least? I'd like you to address that specifically.
3- I agree that it's still stealing, either way, even if there's not any difference at all profitswise. However, I find it much more of a crime if it actually hurts someone in any way, instead of just bending around legalities.
4- The representatives of anime industries have every interest in making it appear much more problematic then it is. And I think that if it does have an effect then it would have the one my friend told me- more anime is sold in Japan, less in the US and Canada, because in the US and Canada they don't get bought.
5- Yennon, if you haven't read it, don't call it BS. Telling people that you won't listen to what they say won't make good conversations happen. At least Ebony is making an attempt at being polite, for which I thank her.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:17 pm
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Insanity Dragonfly 1- I would like to remind you that on this website flaming isn't tolerated and that you yourself agreed to polite discussion. Therefore, please, I beg that you make yourself a little less bitchy about it. I'd be more inclined to listen, and more inclined to continue on the thread, if it didn't feel like you were systematically ignoring my reasonings and only attacking me with calling me a thief. Which, I must agree, I could be qualified as, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything I say.
Quote: 2- As far as I can tell, and forgive me is I'm wrong, you are completely ignoring my point. I agree that buying anime from legitimate sources is MUCH better than reading online. But, is it any better than not reading at all, and not spreading their publicity for them, at least? I'd like you to address that specifically.
As for publicity, I will happily address that. I belong to my school's anime club, and twice a month, we attempt to show my other friends how fun and awesome anime can be by using honest means. I buy stuff, lend it to my friends; they get into it, they buy stuff, and lend it to me. And as my friends and I go out and buy more anime and related merchandise, we're helping the industry and showing others how great it is. There's no need to steal from the industry in order to encourage publicity; in fact, if you watch and read your stuff illegally, you're only encouraging others to do the same and thus continue the vicious cycle.
Quote: 3- I agree that it's still stealing, either way, even if there's not any difference at all profitswise. However, I find it much more of a crime if it actually hurts someone in any way, instead of just bending around legalities.
As a writer myself, I know how much it would suck to have someone read or change my work without my consent. This isn't just considering the unavoidable financial aspect but, also, because I worked hard on my poetry/prose/whatever and it has artistic dignity. And I'm willing to bet that the writers, producers, voice actors, artists, and the thousands upon thousands of employees of the anime industry feel exactly the same way.
Quote: 4- The representatives of anime industries have every interest in making it appear much more problematic then it is. And I think that if it does have an effect then it would have the one my friend told me- more anime is sold in Japan, less in the US and Canada, because in the US and Canada they don't get bought.
And even if this were true, I would argue that watching/reading anime illegally is the reason behind the lack of sales in the Western world, which undermines your point. We've already established that the industry does not profit when you watch/read stuff illegally, oui oui? Because if this, the industry becomes afraid of producing new works or translating existing works because of the probability of actually losing money.
That's how a capitalistic economy works, like it or not. You invest in or put something out there in hopes that you will profit off of its success. If you think that your losses will outnumber your gains, you won't feel secure enough to investing your money, time, or energy into something. That's exactly what's happening here. Suppose that you are able to back up this claim: Think about why sales may be plummeting in the West. Think about why the anime industry is calling their fans to use more honorable means of enjoying their productions.
Quote: 5- Yennon, if you haven't read it, don't call it BS. Telling people that you won't listen to what they say won't make good conversations happen. At least Ebony is making an attempt at being polite, for which I thank her. |
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:34 pm
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Insanity Dragonfly 1- I would like to remind you that on this website flaming isn't tolerated and that you yourself agreed to polite discussion. Therefore, please, I beg that you make yourself a little less bitchy about it. I'd be more inclined to listen, and more inclined to continue on the thread, if it didn't feel like you were systematically ignoring my reasonings and only attacking me with calling me a thief. Which, I must agree, I could be qualified as, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything I say. 2- As far as I can tell, and forgive me is I'm wrong, you are completely ignoring my point. I agree that buying anime from legitimate sources is MUCH better than reading online. But, is it any better than not reading at all, and not spreading their publicity for them, at least? I'd like you to address that specifically. 3- I agree that it's still stealing, either way, even if there's not any difference at all profitswise. However, I find it much more of a crime if it actually hurts someone in any way, instead of just bending around legalities. 4- The representatives of anime industries have every interest in making it appear much more problematic then it is. And I think that if it does have an effect then it would have the one my friend told me- more anime is sold in Japan, less in the US and Canada, because in the US and Canada they don't get bought. 5- Yennon, if you haven't read it, don't call it BS. Telling people that you won't listen to what they say won't make good conversations happen. At least Ebony is making an attempt at being polite, for which I thank her.
2. I did not 'flame' you. I replied in a off-hand way. If you could report people for talking like I do, I would have reported many people by now. I know the ToS, and I'm following it.
3. I see your point. I disagree with it. And you're not going to change my mind. Stealing in anyway is still illegal. Whether you and your children were starving, and you stole food, or were just DIEING to see Ponyo and downloaded it. Its all illegal, and punishable by the law.
4. I can call whatever I want BS. I've heard the subtitles rant before. I've been an anime fan for a long time. I've heard the anime purist BS. So spare me, and my thread. |
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:49 pm
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Hmm... From the posts that I have read (I didn't read the entire discussion), this looks like a very heated issue.
I'm the one that sits in the shad of gray between illegal and legal. I used to watch only fansubs because I wanted to watch for free (typical, childish view from younger fans who don't make much money). Now I actually have a job for at least half of the year, and the majority of my anime is on legal streaming sites or purchased boxsets.
The problem for me is, I'm part of the small Case Closed fanbase in America. I've bought all the boxsets that Funi has come out with, and I've almost gotten all the movies (even though I've seen them online already). However, Funi has basically said there isn't enough sales to continue the season sets and will more than likely only continue releasing the movies.
This means that, to see the anime, I can only go to illegal means, while I can still buy the movies as they come out. I'm not saying thievery is ok, and I'm not denying that I'm basically stealing from the industry, but if I only watch one show illegally and am willing to pay if I do get caught, what kind of fan does that make me?
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:48 pm
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Because I am me, I actually read ALL of the posts. xD
This is...a little difficult. Well, for me it is. I am only 13, and obviously, do not have a job. As much as I want to buy all of these different anime DVD's, merchandise, etc. I don't have the money. D:
I tried Adult Swim. It's on too late at night where I live, and my mother will never allow it. T^T
As for YouTube, there are no animes that really interest me. So I'm not sure what to do, because all I really do to entertain myself is watch anime, and I watch anime online.
Suggestions..? D:
EDIT: I checked FUNimation, is it all dubbed? |
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:41 pm
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Ebony the Peacian Insanity Dragonfly 1- I would like to remind you that on this website flaming isn't tolerated and that you yourself agreed to polite discussion. Therefore, please, I beg that you make yourself a little less bitchy about it. I'd be more inclined to listen, and more inclined to continue on the thread, if it didn't feel like you were systematically ignoring my reasonings and only attacking me with calling me a thief. Which, I must agree, I could be qualified as, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything I say. I'm not exactly sure if you're referring to me or not, but I'm going to have to call foul on the "bitchy" comment. Please don't use that kind of language. Quote: 2- As far as I can tell, and forgive me is I'm wrong, you are completely ignoring my point. I agree that buying anime from legitimate sources is MUCH better than reading online. But, is it any better than not reading at all, and not spreading their publicity for them, at least? I'd like you to address that specifically. Actually, yes: it is better than not reading it at all. No one leeches off the other: you're not entertained, but that's fine, because you're not paying them anything; they're not entertaining you, but that, too, is fine, because they're not losing any money. As for publicity, I will happily address that. I belong to my school's anime club, and twice a month, we attempt to show my other friends how fun and awesome anime can be by using honest means. I buy stuff, lend it to my friends; they get into it, they buy stuff, and lend it to me. And as my friends and I go out and buy more anime and related merchandise, we're helping the industry and showing others how great it is. There's no need to steal from the industry in order to encourage publicity; in fact, if you watch and read your stuff illegally, you're only encouraging others to do the same and thus continue the vicious cycle. Quote: 3- I agree that it's still stealing, either way, even if there's not any difference at all profitswise. However, I find it much more of a crime if it actually hurts someone in any way, instead of just bending around legalities. You're entitled to your opinions and moral standing on what defines a "crime." But there's more than a legal aspect to this: there's a moral one, as well. As a writer myself, I know how much it would suck to have someone read or change my work without my consent. This isn't just considering the unavoidable financial aspect but, also, because I worked hard on my poetry/prose/whatever and it has artistic dignity. And I'm willing to bet that the writers, producers, voice actors, artists, and the thousands upon thousands of employees of the anime industry feel exactly the same way. Quote: 4- The representatives of anime industries have every interest in making it appear much more problematic then it is. And I think that if it does have an effect then it would have the one my friend told me- more anime is sold in Japan, less in the US and Canada, because in the US and Canada they don't get bought. Do you have any sources or research that would support this claim? And even if this were true, I would argue that watching/reading anime illegally is the reason behind the lack of sales in the Western world, which undermines your point. We've already established that the industry does not profit when you watch/read stuff illegally, oui oui? Because if this, the industry becomes afraid of producing new works or translating existing works because of the probability of actually losing money. That's how a capitalistic economy works, like it or not. You invest in or put something out there in hopes that you will profit off of its success. If you think that your losses will outnumber your gains, you won't feel secure enough to investing your money, time, or energy into something. That's exactly what's happening here. Suppose that you are able to back up this claim: Think about why sales may be plummeting in the West. Think about why the anime industry is calling their fans to use more honorable means of enjoying their productions. Quote: 5- Yennon, if you haven't read it, don't call it BS. Telling people that you won't listen to what they say won't make good conversations happen. At least Ebony is making an attempt at being polite, for which I thank her. Let's all be polite with one another. I'm sure we can reach a compromise.
1- I apologize for the language, Ebony, and I thank you for the reminder.
2- That's a great answer and I concede the point that it is in every way wrong. As I have already mentioned, however, this means I'll probably just end up reading and watching a little less, and see what I can do with my (super-limited) budget to buy some amount.
3- I didn't know you were an author, though I too do some writing and to be honest, I feel that what I may one day publish is for general enjoyment more than profit, so I wouldn't have an issue. However, I'm not planning on being a fulltime author for pretty well exactly that reason and I see your point- I'm just weird, and other authors may think differently.
4- The anime industry here, you mean. I'd just like to clarify that it's not suffering badly elsewhere. I believe that the speaker originally was for voice-overs here, yes? then obviously he feels threatened, but the Japanese mangaka are not being unduly affected. Less stuff is being translated, but the quantity made is still normal.
And I concede the point that it's a vicious cycle that should hopefully be stopped.
5- Agreed, thank you. Could you please tell Yennon that because she clearly dismissed anything I say, and it's starting to get me really annoyed. |
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:49 pm
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YennonCrow 1. Still don't care. 2. I did not 'flame' you. I replied in a off-hand way. If you could report people for talking like I do, I would have reported many people by now. I know the ToS, and I'm following it. 3. I see your point. I disagree with it. And you're not going to change my mind. Stealing in anyway is still illegal. Whether you and your children were starving, and you stole food, or were just DIEING to see Ponyo and downloaded it. Its all illegal, and punishable by the law. 4. I can call whatever I want BS. I've heard the subtitles rant before. I've been an anime fan for a long time. I've heard the anime purist BS. So spare me, and my thread.
1. Do you realize that I could reply 'still don't care' as well and this discussion would be over, both of us incensed, and looking like fools to any reader? I know that you feel you're right, but not listening to what people have to say and replying as though you knew what to say before you even read my post isn't going to convince me.
2. Point taken. But even if you 'reply in an offhand way', it gives the impression there is no point to this discussion and I'm only going to have you ranting at me if I stay in the thread.
3. Are your ethics governed by what's legal or not?
4. You can call whatever you want BS. That doesn't make you sound any more intelligent when you do. |
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:53 pm
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Miakemi Hmm... From the posts that I have read (I didn't read the entire discussion), this looks like a very heated issue. I'm the one that sits in the shad of gray between illegal and legal. I used to watch only fansubs because I wanted to watch for free (typical, childish view from younger fans who don't make much money). Now I actually have a job for at least half of the year, and the majority of my anime is on legal streaming sites or purchased boxsets. The problem for me is, I'm part of the small Case Closed fanbase in America. I've bought all the boxsets that Funi has come out with, and I've almost gotten all the movies (even though I've seen them online already). However, Funi has basically said there isn't enough sales to continue the season sets and will more than likely only continue releasing the movies. This means that, to see the anime, I can only go to illegal means, while I can still buy the movies as they come out. I'm not saying thievery is ok, and I'm not denying that I'm basically stealing from the industry, but if I only watch one show illegally and am willing to pay if I do get caught, what kind of fan does that make me?
That makes you an OK fan by my standards. If you bought everything there was to buy then I don't see what else you can do.
In fact, the amount of people watching the subbed interweb-version might even be a pointer to the publishers that translating again would be good. |
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