Bad Garb

[Naito_Mitsukai]

Again, we only have one big event a year, and most (as in, except for maybe one or two people) have their own garb. =)
Sadly there are far too many other issues needing to be dealt with at the moment.

And I didn't mean 'go through it and throw out everything'. I mean, go through it and see what's there, see what can be altered or fixed or otherwise changed to work,and then make some more tunics and the like (We bought some material, but again never got that far).

And as I am over 24 hours drive away from there, at the moment, I can't do much to help. sad  

[Runa Whynd]

Still, a garb drive isn't a bad idea. If everyone has thier own garb, you're sure to find a few of them with one or two pieces they don't really need anymore. And T tunics are simple and easy to make in many sizes. Just takes a little time.  

[Kittywitch]

I found that while people don't always have usable garb they need to get rid of, they do have some fabric somewhere in their house they don't know what to do with. If you suggest they could alternately donate fabric, you might get contributions to your gold key that way.  

[Sir_Catherine]

I'd donate several pieces of fabric to my Shire if in return someone would sew me a simple white veil. I've even the material for said veil, just not the ability with sewing. Sadly, none of my fabric is anything I think other SCAdians would want so I don't see this swap happening.  

[Raven Harlequin]

Ok, so I read all the way up to page 6 where I stopped because I was pretty much reading the same thing. Forgive me if anything I say has been mentioned before.


*sigh* Going down the list...

Roetroc

+people who used cotton/cotton blends/polyester in their clothes

Cotton was actually introduced as a fabric by Arab traders in the 1st century, so while it was not popular at the time, it is still considered period. If you're that negative nancy about it you could always use Muslin. It was introduced around the 14th century and became mainstream in the 17th century. It breaths very nicely.

Roetroc

+hooded cloaks

Again, this is still period. While it was fashion to wear a separate hood with a cloak, there were still hooded cloaks.

Roetroc

+T-tunics

Since when are T-Tunics considered bad garb?

Roetroc

+non-period shoes

Ok, I can understand your frustration with this one, but there are some cases where buying faux fur trimmed boots at Payless would be less expensive than buying/making the real deal. So long as the player is wearing garb long enough to cover it I don't have an issue with it.

Roetroc

+people who don't wear wool because they are "allergic". Yes, wool itches, you aren't allergic, true wool allergies are quite rare.

I concur with this statement. While I do have a mother that is genuenly allergic to Wool, I no longer live with her so I don't have to worry about this anymore. Also, a good wool will not itch.

Roetroc

+tartan skirts on men
+kilts

Kilts are sexy. End of story.

Roetroc

+plaids (for the most part)

Plaid is period.

Roetroc

+large girls wearing corsets

If you chose your persona based on the garb you like, don't do it if you are obese. Corsets make a waist look pretty, but it only goes so far...

GaijinGuy36

I was talking to someone at a weapon shop at an event (both person and event shall remain nameless, as I am kind and merciful) who was telling me he wanted to get this weapon for his druid outfit, and that bow for his ranger's gear.

WTF? How in the land does one mistake SCA for AD&D???? This isn't a LARP, kids. Go Google Lion Rampant, Amtgard, or one of the many others, if that's what you're after.

When you hear the words Druid and Ranger I can see how you get D&D/Larp from that, but was that the person's intention? Druids were very much period if he has a persona that's religious, and Ranger is just another word for Archer which come from pretty much any society during the period time frames.

Tchipakkan

What makes the SCA look bad is that we look like a freaking costume party- everything from Samauri to Romans to Pirates to just about anything else.
As long as we are going to allow anything, we will obviously allow the "caveman" look the Tuchuk culture has developed.

The SCA ranges from 600 AD to 1600 AD and all three that you mentioned happen to fall into that time line. And don't diss on the Romans! One of my good friend's persona is Roman and he does a damn good job of it.

Kittywitch

I heard the most beautiful thing just two minutes ago. I had to come here and tell you all. I had thought this was bad garb, but apparently it actually happened in period.
You know those animal tails, fox tails mostly, hung off the belt; more often coming off the hip then the back.
They're period. Wearing them on the hip is period.

They were used as a remedy to attract lice away from your crotch. xd

They were also used to keep the shape of a dress while being worn, but they were worn under the garb.

... It's late now so I'll be sure to read the rest of the posts tomorrow and make further comments.  

[Out to the Black]

Thanks for this post!

Raven Harlequin

Roetroc

+non-period shoes

Ok, I can understand your frustration with this one, but there are some cases where buying faux fur trimmed boots at Payless would be less expensive than buying/making the real deal. So long as the player is wearing garb long enough to cover it I don't have an issue with it.

And I think it's been mentioned before that some people have medical reasons for this. One of my close friends tore something inside her foot and it can essentially cripple her if she goes without specific support in her footwear.

Raven Harlequin

Tchipakkan

What makes the SCA look bad is that we look like a freaking costume party- everything from Samauri to Romans to Pirates to just about anything else.
As long as we are going to allow anything, we will obviously allow the "caveman" look the Tuchuk culture has developed.

The SCA ranges from 600 AD to 1600 AD and all three that you mentioned happen to fall into that time line. And don't diss on the Romans! One of my good friend's persona is Roman and he does a damn good job of it.

And the Tuchuk's are an odd circumstance. They were originally a seperate group (I believe thier culture is based around the Gore books). Our association with them started when we lost out original Pennsic site and they invited us to come play at thier site. That's why they have such a strong presence at Pennsic. They were there first.

The whole thing about the SCA is they ask that you make a reasonable attempt at period garb. What consitutes a reasonable attempt depends on the individual circumstance. It can be affected by such things as time, money, skill sets, and health.  

[Kittywitch]

Raven Harlequin

Tchipakkan

What makes the SCA look bad is that we look like a freaking costume party- everything from Samauri to Romans to Pirates to just about anything else.
As long as we are going to allow anything, we will obviously allow the "caveman" look the Tuchuk culture has developed.

The SCA ranges from 600 AD to 1600 AD and all three that you mentioned happen to fall into that time line. And don't diss on the Romans! One of my good friend's persona is Roman and he does a damn good job of it.

I don't believe she was "dissing on the Romans". (she only does that in persona) She was just commenting on how, with everyone mixed together from the SCA's entire range, it looks less like a medieval setting and more like people in costume. A roman officer would never fight beside a landsknecht, after all.  

[MorganOfCalafia]

I'm not sure if I've said this before or not but I have trouble with period shoes. I'd go barefoot since sailors would often be seen without shoes except at one of our biggest events there are all sorts of things that get jammed in peoples feet. Also I'm always working at events which can sometimes be hard to do without shoes. Anyway, I have a cheap pair of boots that I got from walmart for until i can get a better pair that look okay, but after about one war and three day events, they're falling apart. So period shoes have always been one of my big problems.  

[Dragostae]

Just because it is a pet peeve of mine:

The SCA does not have an early cutoff date, just a late one. My persona dates from the 6th century and is therefore from before the 600s. I have a friend who made her idea of what Minoan clothing may have been, and she did a kick-a** job at it. Both are before the 600s. There will be outliers, and that's okay, but please, please, please, stop spreading the whole "the SCA must be in this box of time" thing. It's simply not true. (Yes, I know our general paradigm is mediaeval and Renaissance culture and clothing, but please, don't isolate those that are outside of those specifics.)  

[Naito_Mitsukai]

Dragostae

Just because it is a pet peeve of mine:

The SCA does not have an early cutoff date, just a late one. My persona dates from the 6th century and is therefore from before the 600s. I have a friend who made her idea of what Minoan clothing may have been, and she did a kick-a** job at it. Both are before the 600s. There will be outliers, and that's okay, but please, please, please, stop spreading the whole "the SCA must be in this box of time" thing. It's simply not true. (Yes, I know our general paradigm is mediaeval and Renaissance culture and clothing, but please, don't isolate those that are outside of those specifics.)

If I recall correctly, originally the SCA had a cut-off date (ie: 600's - 1600's); and then it was amended.

The SCA.org site currently states on the front page: "The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe."

I think some people have missed that one, though.

: ) heart  

[Dragostae]

Naito_Mitsukai

If I recall correctly, originally the SCA had a cut-off date (ie: 600's - 1600's); and then it was amended.

The SCA.org site currently states on the front page: "The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe."

I think some people have missed that one, though.

: ) heart

Yes, that did exist, however, it is popular thought (though incorrect) that there is an early cutoff date.

I apologise if I offended anyone. It's one of those hair-trigger things for me. I also do education in kingdom to help out the chatelaines, and I can't bear newbies being told erroneous information like they have to have a persona from a particular time period (prior to 1600) because the SCA doesn't cover it..  

[Naito_Mitsukai]

Dragostae

Yes, that did exist, however, it is popular thought (though incorrect) that there is an early cutoff date.

I apologise if I offended anyone. It's one of those hair-trigger things for me. I also do education in kingdom to help out the chatelaines, and I can't bear newbies being told erroneous information like they have to have a persona from a particular time period (prior to 1600) because the SCA doesn't cover it..

(Oh hey! It tells you when you've been quoted in Guilds now! Awesome! biggrin )

I whole-heartedly agree! But sadly, it takes a while for changes (especially ones that don't effect everyone, or are considered 'small' or 'insignificant' ) to become common knowledge.
Right now, it's still a point of debate many times (at least, in my experience). Give it another year or two, and (in theory) it should have gotten around better. heart  

[Dragostae]

Naito_Mitsukai

(Oh hey! It tells you when you've been quoted in Guilds now! Awesome! biggrin )

I whole-heartedly agree! But sadly, it takes a while for changes (especially ones that don't effect everyone, or are considered 'small' or 'insignificant' ) to become common knowledge.
Right now, it's still a point of debate many times (at least, in my experience). Give it another year or two, and (in theory) it should have gotten around better. heart

I -know-! I'm rather happy about this!

Yeah, to say the least. Here in Calontir, it's not that big of an issue (surprise, surprise), but we still have a few stalwarts who think otherwise.  

[Courtesan Brigitte]

I just had to add a couple period notes in response to some of these complaints:

Cotton Is Period.
The earliest surviving cotton cloth dates from 5000bc (found in a cave in Mexico). Cotton was domesticated in the Indus valley area (modern India/Pakistan) from about the 5th-4th centuries BC. During the explorations of Alexander the Great, Herodotus spoke of wool growing on trees in that region, and cotton moved West.

Cotton was popular in Rome in the first century AD. It was manufactured and imported from Egypt and India. It's STILL manufactured and imported from Egypt. You know, Egyptian cotton? Your sheets might be made of it. It's soft and yummy. Cotton was also widely produced in China shortly after.

There is some confusion about the fiber we know as cotton today and a material known as cotton in the 15th century, which was actually a "cottonized" woolen. This is itself disputed, because other sources suggest cotton was being imported to Europe in bulk from the 13th century, but that people ASSUMED it came from strange sheep due to the visual similarity of unworked wool and picked cotton.

In the mid 1500s, "fustian of Naples" was a cotton/linen blend that started being manufactured in England. This fabric had a linen warp and a cotton weft, for the weavers out there.

Persons with early-to-late-period Mediterranian, middle-eastern, or Asian "visitor" personas are absolutely accurate in wearing cotton and cotton/linen and cotton/wool blends. Western Europeans started using plain cotton for linings and under layers from the 12-1500s (depending who you ask) and dyed cottons in a multitude of patterns was available for at least that long, if not before.

Cloaks with hoods are not period.
Hooded capes and cloaks are a purely Victorian thing. Yes, it's possible that your persona just happened to think of it ahead of his time, but if we're playing that game, why not say you're a psychic genius and show up in jeans?

Corsets 101
There seems to be major confusion about corsetry.

Corsets weren't used until the very end of our period, and even then, they weren't generally called corsets.

The difference between a (support) bodice and a corset in SCA period is how it's worn. There were MANY styles which could be worn with an unboned outer layer over a corset, or a boned bodice and no corset. The development of boned base layers was an economic move, so a woman could have one pair of bodies and wear it with a multitude of unboned or lightly-boned garments, rather than having to put expensive whalebone or time-consuming rushes into every gown and bodice.

As late as the mid/late 17th century, post our period, there were bodices designed to be worn EITHER as a support garment OR as an external garment. There's a 1660-1670 corset on display at the V&A museum which their curators explained would have been worn sleeveless as underwear or with the matching sleeves as an outer garment on a more casual occasion.

Bodices offer breast support, which at minimum includes some lift. There are no examples of period art I have EVER found which show bodices to push the breasts up SO high that a well-endowed woman sitting in a low chair is in danger of suffocation. MOST periods the SCA covers also did not show QUITE so much skin as most SCA bodices do. The notable exception is renaissance Italy, which during certain decades caused scandal in the rest of Europe because of how cleavage-tastic their fashions became. The whores.

Depending on the exact time and place, bodices were cut to show the breasts (such as the aforementioned swinging Italians) or to hide them. Tudor corsets mushed the breasts flat rather than propping them up. It all depended on what the fashion was at the time.

Wearing a bodice alone, unsleeved, over a chemise (with a SKIRT) is completely acceptable as a late-period fashion choice for the low or middle class, so long as the bodice is not strapless, which is an element of corsetry that came later, and so long as the bodice fits. Ladies, you should not be experiencing back cleavage. You should not be muffin-topping. And your breasts should not be threatening to take over your face. Collarbones are attractive. Don't hide them behind your tits.

Prior to the popularization of bodices, bust support was accomplished through clever tailoring and static fabrics (too much stretch and support gets lost). Cotehardies, for example, are not boned at all, and have no additional support garment, but they're cut close to the body so when laced up, they support the breasts quite comfortably and adequately.

Piracy is period.

Someone said pirates aren't period. Blackbeard isn't period. Jack Sparrow isn't period. That doesn't mean piracy isn't period. There have been recorded pirate attacks literally since the very first culture decided that boats could be used to propagate trade. I wrote a very long article about what European pirates wore from the earliest recorded pirates (BC) to the 18th century AD. You can find it here.

On a related note, my persona was a ship's whore for a couple years. It was fun.  

[Sir_Catherine]

Courtesan Brigitte

I wrote a very long article about what European pirates wore from the earliest recorded pirates (BC) to the 18th century AD. You can find it here.

I love you, in an SCA way. lol Seriously; somewhere else in the guild forums I inquired about factual information on period pirates. I wanted to sort through the arguments and learn something, not create a persona or such like that. Your link seems to be just what I was hoping to find.