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help me understand this proof

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nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am


This is a proof I read in Penrose's book "The Emperor's New Mind" it's part of the background or prelude to his main argument. He covered Cantor's 'diagonal slash' argument for why the Real set of numbers is not countable, in which he shows that there are actually more real numbers than rationals. However I didn't understand the proof very well. here it is.

Some of this is paraphrased so as to shorten it. I've only taken out detail I assume you guys would know.
Penrose

Cantor's argument proceeds by contradiction. Suppose that the set of all real numbers is countable. Then the real numbers between 0 and 1 are countable, and we shall have some list providing a one-to one pairing of all such numbers with the natural numbers, such as:

0 --> 0.10357627183...
1 --> 0.14329806115...
2 --> 0.02166095213...
3 --> 0.43005357779...
4 --> 0.92550489101...
5 --> 0.59210343297...
6 --> 0.63667910457...
7 --> 0.87050074193...
8 --> 0.04311737804...
9 --> 0.78635081150...
10--> 0.40916738891...

The digits on a diagonal have been bolded and for this particular listing they are:
1,4,1,0,0,3,1,4,8,5,1,...

The diagonal slash procedure is to construct a real number (between 0 and 1) whose decimal expansion (after the decimal point) differs from these digits in each corresponding place.


I don't understand why this has to be the case, and what the purpose of creating this diagonal slash is. If you are acquainted with some Computer Science, Penrose demonstrated the same argument to show that there is no Turing Machine which can determine if any other Turing Machine eventually stops. So an explanation of this argument would be much appreciated.

Penrose
For definiteness, let us say that the digit is to be 1 whenever the diagonal digit is different from 1 and it is 2 whenever the diagonal digit is 1. Thu, in this case we get the real number: 0.21211121112...

This real number cannot appear in our listing since it differs from the first number in the first decimal place (after the decimal point, from the third number in the third place, etc. This is a contradiction because what we are trying to prove, namely that there is no one-to-one correspondence between the real numbers and the natural numbers and, accordingly, the number of real numbers is actually greater than the number of rational numbers and is not countable.


Why cannot the new real number appear on the list? Why is the criterion set that all digits in the new real number must differ from all other digits in the same place?

I must say that the argument makes intuitive sense simply because there is an infinite number of real numbers in any particular interval and thus they are not countable even within an infinitessimally small interval, while for rational numbers you can always find an interval small enough between which there will only be irrational numbers. Is my own reasoning correct or faulty with this?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:04 am


Power, the point is to use the diagonal as a guide to create the uncountable element of the set [or one of them].

For example, your diagonal is: 1,4,1,0,0,3,1,4,8,5,1,...

With this we can see that 0.25211425962… is not in the set because we constructed it in such as way so that it will always differ from any one of the elements [one decimal place must be different, that is the role of the diagonal].

Therefore the set of numbers cannot be placed into a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers.

A Lost Iguana
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Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:39 pm


Just a quick statement that helped me begin to understand Cantor's argument:

"Given any arbitrary countable set of real numbers (within an interval), we can find at least one other number (in the same interval) which is not part of that set. Thus, an interval on the real line is infinite but is not completely described by *any* countable set, so it is uncountable."

I always find with analysis proofs that I have to continue the proof to the conclusion - even if that conclusion *should* be painfully transparent - to really understand it. For diagonalization, the implication isn't just that the countable set that you have in your lap doesn't contain some number; it's that *any* countable set that you could ever come across is lacking real numbers. What Cantor diagonalization does is provide one with an algorithm for finding the missing number, given any countable set, which completes the proof.

(That wasn't as quick as I had imagined...)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:42 pm


A Lost Iguana
Power, the point is to use the diagonal as a guide to create the uncountable element of the set [or one of them].

For example, your diagonal is: 1,4,1,0,0,3,1,4,8,5,1,...

With this we can see that 0.25211425962… is not in the set because we constructed it in such as way so that it will always differ from any one of the elements [one decimal place must be different, that is the role of the diagonal].

Therefore the set of numbers cannot be placed into a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers.


so, paraphrasing (and I think I've got it now) "you can always create a that has not been counted".

nonameladyofsins


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:04 am


Right. The statement "This set is uncountable" is the same as saying that "This set is infinite and every countable subset leaves something out." This proof works because it gives you a method for finding at least one missing number.
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Mathematics

 
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