Power Gaming/Min-maxing VS Knowing what you're doing?

[Seiryna]

Ok so here is the deal. I've been called a power gamer and min-maxer by more DMs then I care to say. maybe I am, or maybe the DMs I've played are just inexperienced. I've been playing 3.5 for years now, I won't say exactly how long, but long enough lol I have most of the source books, or at least all the ones that are important to me, and some third party source books, and I've read through them all many many times. so here is my thing, and mind you I'm bad at explaining stuff. I LOVE rogues, they're my favorite class I've been playing them ever sense I started playing D&D. I like having to relay on my wits and skills, rather then my high HP/AC or blasting everything in sight with magic hence Charisma = dex > int > wis > str > con are how I set up my stats if this is min-maxing why is to so bad that I prefer one way over the typical mindless bash the door down and kill everything in sight play style? and whats peoples thoughts on power gaming? what is it to other people to me its someone who makes a level 1 char with a LA+8 and starts off with like +20str and sees nothing wrong with it. people seem to call me a power gamer cause as rogue I play a race that gives a bonus to dex/cha and whose favored race is rogue (LA+0, and if I can get away with it I also use a template with her that adds LA+1, just because it actually works with my char, and isn't something stupid.) makes sense right? I like rogues gonna play a race that likes rogues (I used to play with the -10% exp if you weren't the class your race preferred) and as for feats I pick feats that compliment her. I like to play charismatic dexterous rogues. my feats are the Duel Wielding tree with weapon finesse, mostly for Sneak attack, the fact that my char has no hp, and no ac IF and when she gets in to combat she needs to put down her enemies before they can put her down, also pick luck feats that let me reroll certain rolls an X number of times per-day. so is this power gaming/min-maxing or simply knowing what you're doing/liking one way to play over what everyone seems to be the normal for D&D AkA kill first ask questions later. my char is more ask questions first, bribe second, sweet talk third and then if ALL else fails kill.

Edit: Not ALL DMs have called me a power gamer/min-maxer. if anyone wants me to go more in depth of my char, feel free to say so, and if anyone needs a good rogue for an OpenRPG/MSN game pick me!!!  

[Arc Vembris]

I like the Invisible Hand from CW, the class becomes a complete blender on liquefy as soon as you can make the flank. Assuming it's not a crit-immune creature. Sucks to have a quarter of monster types turn your beefy rogue into a limp commoner.  

[Seiryna]

Arc Vembris

I like the Invisible Hand from CW, the class becomes a complete blender on liquefy as soon as you can make the flank. Assuming it's not a crit-immune creature. Sucks to have a quarter of monster types turn your beefy rogue into a limp commoner.

eh at higher levels this isn't so much a problem lol I have an epic level rogue that can SA everything but plants, oozes and constructs. but there is a spell that wizards/sorcs get that lets rogues SA constructs, druid also gets a spell that lets you SA plants, so with UMD you can get a scroll/wand of them and SA everything but oozes lol...see what I mean about knowing to much lol =x I can also pick any level lock with out rolling a single skill check or casting any spell lol....which annoys DMs that aren't experienced, or prepared for just how sneaky and annoying a rogue I am =x on a side note go go specialist rogue <.<' 2/3 votes XD  

[iDragow]

I have no experience with 3.5e, but I know that one of my fav 4e chars is a Rouge. I have my Razorclaw Shifter built around charging, and if everything fell into place just right, he could do almost 7d6+4 damage at level 2. 4laugh  

[Seiryna]

iDragow

I have no experience with 3.5e, but I know that one of my fav 4e chars is a Rouge. I have my Razorclaw Shifter built around charging, and if everything fell into place just right, he could do almost 7d6+4 damage at level 2. 4laugh

lol and people say its easier to min-max/power game in 3.5 <.< at level 2 as rouge if everything fell in to place you'd do....1d4+1d6+str XD unless you had duel wield at level 1 then it'd be 2d4+2d6+str using daggers <.<' I always use daggers, sure there are better weapons XD but I like daggers XD easier to slight of hand and hide XD  

[Reevinja Mk II]

Lilly Bloodthorn

Ok so here is the deal. I've been called a power gamer and min-maxer by more DMs then I care to say. maybe I am, or maybe the DMs I've played are just inexperienced.

For me, I've been called one thing or another similar/related thing like that by about a handful of DMs. I wouldn't necessarily call them inexperienced (well, one or two I would - but not the others). I think its' just more the general, broad definitions of these terms (I have seen both of them defined in at least 3 different ways.. each) combined with the general 'this is bad!' connotation each recieve make it easy to label someone as one, or the other, and thus a bad player.

I just think of myself as good with numbers, and tend not to care about the specific name I'm called. I also like Optimizer, but that sort of has one of the same problems (varying definition of what it means).

/Shrug. I try to make up for it in the quality of a character (the 'fluff') - and though I never really think I do, its' more up to the DM's opinion than my own.

And from here on, I'm going to say (x) instead of powergaming/min-maxing-what-have-you.. cause it is easier.

Lilly

I've been playing 3.5 for years now, I won't say exactly how long, but long enough lol ... hence Charisma = dex > int > wis > str > con are how I set up my stats if this is min-maxing why is to so bad that I prefer one way over the typical mindless bash the door down and kill everything in sight play style? and whats peoples thoughts on power gaming?

4-5 years for me. I'm a fan of spellcasting (and whenever I play a specialist, evocation is my first banned school of choice), and general skills (Rogues, for example).

And weighting stats based on the character, I see as intelligent character design. I can't really see why it would be considered (x), just like a number of other things... such as having 2 base classes, or more than 2 classes in total (one base, one prestige) - I've seen people say that is (x) too. I mean, I've read cases where to 'roleplay' some people give thier characters massive drawbacks just to say.. they're roleplaying, and anyone who is the generally same character is better because they don't have this massive drawback, but they're called (x).

Honestly, I generally have no problem with how people make characters. If you want to make a Fighter, then call him a Paladin, Knight, Samurai, or Ronin - whatever, go nuts. I don't even care if you make that same character a Rogue. As long as the fluff part of the character works, the sum of its' parts is unimportant. The only times I do care about how a character is made is when it is breaking the established rules (either in the book, or the homebrew rules I'm using for a particular game).

I don't mind homebrewing or bending things (removing alignment restrictions, making reduced LA versions of races, for example though bending things is only to a certain degree...) but when you have +6 BAB at level 1? Then there is a problem. If that makes sense at all aside from in my head.

Lilly

what is it to other people to me its someone who makes a level 1 char with a LA+8 and starts off with like +20str and sees nothing wrong with it. people seem to call me a power gamer cause as rogue I play a race that gives a bonus to dex/cha and whose favored race is rogue (LA+0, and if I can get away with it I also use a template with her that adds LA+1, just because it actually works with my char, and isn't something stupid.) makes sense right? ... (I used to play with the -10% exp if you weren't the class your race preferred) ... so is this power gaming/min-maxing or simply knowing what you're doing/liking one way to play over what everyone seems to be the normal for D&D AkA kill first ask questions later.

I have no problem if someone makes a level 1 character using something with an LA of +8... so long as it is in a game where the starting ECL is 9. The thing most people seem to think is that +20 Strength = AWESOME, and ignore the fact that they have less than 15 HP. Critters at that level will be hitting for twice as much HP as they have in one attack, 90% of the time. Though, its' entirely possible to get +20 Str (or so) with only +3 LA. If not, less. >.> So taking LA+8 to do that? Yeah... I wish you luck, and though I won't have any problem with it, I make no promises to not laugh at you once you get into your first fight and promptly die.

I do the same thing for races. The way I work is I get a general character concept (very general - like.. an Illusionist, or a dual-weapon rogue), then build the mechanics for the character. I'll pick a race that gives me a benefit (in some way), like Gray Elf for a Wizard (though I have used plenty of other races). I see no reason to pick a race which is detrimental for my character (something which gives -2 Int, as a Wizard) unless, as part of the original concept, it was 'a character who is a wizard from a race not typically wizards' or something similar. I tend to avoid LA like the plague, though.

I then make the character's fluff around the mechanics, and build the fluff in the way that makes the mechanics part make sense. If I gave them a +2 LA template (Fiendish, for example) - I'll figure out a reason why here.

The whole -10% XP thing.. I take it this was from an earlier edition, homebrew, or something? In 3.5, a character whose class is different than their favoured class recieves no XP penalty. The favoured class thing only applies to multiclassing. Unless that is what you meant. xD.

If the things you've said here are the only thing you do, I don't think you're (x). I think its' just.. you have a different way of making characters, and prefer to make an effective character. Just like how you'll use LA when its' appropriate, and I avoid LA whenever possible.

Its' very easy to screw up characters in 3.5 to such a degree that .. well, you're more or less useless in all degrees. One of the reasons why I prefer 4e in some regards, its' a lot harder to screw up a character mechanically.

But.. everyone will always have a different opinion. My advice? Don't worry about it.

It doesn't matter how many people call you (x), ignore them and move on. Find a group who isn't stuck in that mindset, and play with them. You'll enjoy the game a lot more that way.

And this ended up being a lot longer/more winded than I had intended it to be. Oops. ;/  

[Rain Yupa]

Some people will call me a min/maxer, but a terrible one. I'll min/max character builds around some really bizarre stuff. Example: I've statted out a D&D character who's combat style involved lighting himself on fire. Nonmagically, at that.

A WoD character who's whole purpose was to eat everything. I even outdrank a suicidal man who was trying to drown himself in bleach.

A D20 Modern character who had crazy high ranks in Drive, and then ending up purposely crashing everything I drove/piloted (hey, having a car driving 60 mph crashing into you when you're standing against a wall does a LOT of damage!)

So, my character build style is usually tolerated. I've never been known to play a broken character :3  

[Avatar129142137]

Yupa, I can safely say that after reading your post.

I love your awesome. lol, and to contribute to the O.P.

I see nothing wrong with what ya do.  

[Rain Yupa]

And on the commute back home after game last night, my thoughts wander to a M&M build involving a character who's combat style involves spontaneously creating corpses out of thin air...  

[Psychofish]

Rain Yupa

Some people will call me a min/maxer, but a terrible one. I'll min/max character builds around some really bizarre stuff. Example: I've statted out a D&D character who's combat style involved lighting himself on fire. Nonmagically, at that.

 

[Raganui Minamoto]

I'd play a M&M game here. I has many ideas for em.

In other news, I tend to do crazy things too, but I will normally build up a good build, such as my last dual wield rogue/swashbuckler. Seriously, with the Daring Outlaw feat it's kinda hard to not splash 3 levels in one or the other. Really, with the introduction of those feats which stacks levels of different classes for certain things, you really find more people turning to a more 'power gamer' mindset.

Course, that's 3.5 for you.

Personally though, I enjoy having players that, while yes, they do happen to take stuff that works well together, don't do the crazy power gaming stuff of 'couple levels of this, couple of that, some of this other and a splash of this 4th with this race' and get stupidly powerful results that would never come about in a game in which the character was actually... well... felt alive. So to speak.

I like seeing my players have flaws, though not the whole 'take flaws that don't matter for bonuses for min/maxing'.

I mean, like, a rogue who is a compulsive gambler or can't help but try to pick pockets. Things that make them feel actually alive... such as the paladin with the wandering eye or the dwarf who gets distracted by finely crafted items...

Hell, maybe you collect books or useless trinkets. Maybe you're addicted to something.

Yea, sorry, rant over.  

[Rain Yupa]

Well, when it comes to it, if either the 4e Coliseum fizzles, the 4e Dungeon Crawl team makes it to the 2nd floor and decides to quit, or the 4e Brave New World game finishes the dungeon, finds the CONFIDENTIAL, and decides that they've had enough, I've been itching to run a game of a different system.

It'd be either Mutants & Masterminds, Legend of the Five Rings, In Nomine, or Midnight. Probably in that order of preference, but I'd be fine with any. (Though I'm not unopposed to a Star Trek or Eclipse Phase game either, the latter of which I'm still learning)

Though, I'm not going to discuss this with any of you here, because that would be off-topic for this thread. This is just a heads up, that's all. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

/END OFF-TOPIC ALTERNATE GAME CONVO  

[Archfiend Damio]

I my opinion someone that calls you min-maxing is more or less someone that is not prepared for your character concept. See when i play a rouge or scout (I never play ninja) I find that a Whisper Gnome tends to be my favorite and though they take the hit to Cha I find that slapping a good score in there and giving him a cloak clears that up yes I tend to play VERY sneak rouges and VERY arrogant and charismatic but some how DMs get angry when they allow me to be the race and the class and I have taken the right feats.

In my build forget Duel wield an extra attack is nice but it ends up too feat heavy for a rouge. Now if I want to have fun with it I take a Spike chain, later take improved trip. And if allowed in the game I take one Shadow hand maneuver and one stance stay in that stance forever and then take shadow blade add dex to damage with shadow hand weapon.) now whats worse pretty much everything I want to do (aside from improved trip depending how I want to go) can be done at first level with with the help of flaws. Feats I never pass up:
Stealthy
Skill focus (Move Silently)

this is great for a whisper gnome especially at first level were your hide and move silently should now rival anyone who tries to see it. With both feats you should have a +10 to hide and +9 to move silently this coupled with a high dex (usually a 20) and max ranks I am getting a +19 hide roll and a +18 move silently now can a DM prepare for that sure in fact when someone says "I am playing a rouge" I think of that build right there.

The last feat I take at first level I take Exotic weapon pro (spike chain.) 10ft reach and fits in with the Shadow hand combo its awesome.

By level 9 you should be adding your dex to damage (note stealthy can be replaced with Improved trip if you feel a 17/16 hide/move is good enough.)

Or if you have the chance (usually in games that are starting me above first) I will take my first level as sowrd sage (again if the book is allowed) because this will give me access to the shadow hand maneuver and stance while saving me a feat and at level 3 I am adding my dex to damage. (which for my gnomes and there 8 strength is very useful.)

But enough about that. just because I am educated enough in D&D mechanics means I am a min-maxer? Game breaker? no not really I mean I am just making my character the best I can and preparing him for the best the DM has in store. if I created a squishy character and first fight he got killed the DM would say well you built him. But if i make a character right they get pissed because they didn't prepare for it.

Why should I not prepare for the worse, if they are not going to prepare at all?  

[Raganui Minamoto]

Jester... don't you need a BAB of +1 to take Exotic weapon proficiency?  

[Seiryna]

Sweet like minded people I don't feel so bad now XD and yeah I read all the replies even if it toke me a few days lol been busy, as for LAs lol anything above 1 I think is kinda meh anything above 3 is just going to far in my opinion XD my rogue uses a LA+1 and thats a big SOMETIMES as I use books that most DMs ether have never heard of, or just flat out refuse lol I hate being limited to core only XD and I do like to use the flaw system, but not for min maxing, and not just randomly picking flaws to better max my char. like one of my rogues flaws is shes a Kleptomaniac and the feat I picked to make up for it is Lucky Fingers or something like that, don't have my char sheet in front of me atm XD lets her reroll 1 slight of hand once a day lol, but yeah when it comes to being prepared lol I'm one of those people that needs like 3 pieces of paper just for what my char is carrying lol I use like...let me think.... 8 books just for my equipment O.o no wait I forgot one...9 books just for equipment alone =x and 1 home brew item if I can lol, not including the stuff I pick up/find/'acquire' through out the game....thats just my start gearing.....
as long as I can carry it all...you can never have to much stuff...which is funny cause usually my char has a max carrying limit of like 20lbs XD magic bags ftw ^^' why do I carry a folding ladder that can be used as a bridge that only weighs 5lbs? why not? XD