Interesting reddit post I found about Gaiaonline

[Scobre]

Phoenix Goliathane

Quote:

For example, in this thread dating back to the peak of Gaia in January 2008

Okay, which of you GCDers is the redditor behind this post? emotion_awesome

No, but seriously...as I'm reading this, it does basically read as every GCD thread ever about the inflation, just applied to Reddit.

I will note a few things:

1) In my opinion, the period between 2007-2010 was unusually stable price-wise. Early in its history, items also suffered staggering inflation - as in they'd double in price each month.

In this case, it wasn't technically "inflation" per se. Sealed envelopes remained in a fairly narrow band of 3000-7000g (the more popular items at the time, like the summer '04 items, being at the higher end; the less popular items, like the winter and spring '04 items, being at the lower end). But because there was massive growth and churn in the userbase, in addition to hoarding, you could easily pay 100k for an item, wait a month, and flip it for double what you paid.

(Admittedly, there was also artificial inflation, even in early 2004. The more things change...)

2) I've seen inflation before, myself. And games have...actually survived. The famous example, as Alexius noted, is Diablo 3.

I've also seen it on Ragnarok Online. (Source: iRO Loki player, 2004-2008ish. iRO Yggdrasil player, 2010-2012ish. Or whenever the hell Ygg opened.) Both of those were due to rampant botting and zeny-farming (zeny being RO's currency). I believe that the servers just dragged along - while the game itself has long been dead, I think the inflation was a minor thing. (A more major thing was game balance - it seemed that with every patch, one class or another became horribly overpowered in relation to others. And War of Emperium - its guild war mode - was a complete ******** on so many levels.)

3) But I digress.

To be honest, I know GCD's argument by heart - "This hyperinflation is BAD BAD BAD because it screws over the users who refuse to pay for cash items." Which I don't disagree with - why even bother posting if all it gets you are gold shop items?

But it's like - I hate to sound whiny, but what about the rest of us that DO buy GC? Speaking from experience (and I'm a guy that studied mathematics for two years), the numbers are basically meaningless at this point. I'd rather have a few million or even a few thousand and have numbers that are easier to deal with.

Having prices this high in general throws up a barrier to entry for people who aren't hardcore Gaia users. For example, a thirty-year-old guy who enjoys forgetting to put shirts on internet dress-up dolls in his spare time and has some disposable income may get frustrated with the fact that pricing is nearly inscrutable and that he has to count out nine or ten zeroes just to sell a damn RIG.

Yes, I look dazzlingly wealthy when I log in. But it's basically come at the expense of site usability - at one point, multiple features broke because of pricing.

Obviously, my concerns about site pricing are moot. As are the concerns about non-paying users being pushed off of Gaia. Which is a shame, because they should be bigger concerns.

Thank you for providing some examples of personal experience with other activities not on Gaia and some history of Gaia's past economic standing. It is nice to know that things do survive despite inflation. There have been a lot of glitches because of inflation and not sure I mentioned it in this thread or another. Sorry been a long day. But like the cap had to be lifted, so that required funding for Gaia to code, then there is scamming going on with trades because of so many digits, and man I couldn't only imagine how frustrating that would be typing that many digits. It does feel like Gaiaonline is no longer a casual site like it used to be and I agree on the barriers to entry comment. Well I'm a non-paying, but lucky enough to do Gaia cash offers myself and so far not pushed off. I just take hiatuses when needed. I just tend not to feel guilty of not being able to financially keep up with the current Gaia. I don't really mind if people want to spend GC themselves. I mean I think every Gaian is important to the site no matter what they do on it or how active they are. It's like yes inflation exists, but I've been noticing how the interactive part of the site has been slipping with it. Gaians need to feel welcomed on the site and it's been sad seeing groups of people leaving at once for better alternatives. I think it's something Gaians should be worried about is the future of the site and how to make it fun for the future generations.

[Scobre]

Star of the South

Scobre

Forums isn't completely free anymore with the promote my post for $1 feature. It's optional, but forums can no longer be called free. Last kickstarter just made gold shops have the p2p aspect to it too. But yeah your example really showed how the MMO p2p mentality has crept into the site, but probably not as severe yet. I know being in the zOMG! part of the site, so many groups of friends have left the site completely. But like you said, it's not as noticeable in the bigger forums. I haven't noticed SF and GCD has slowed down quite a bit over the past year. I remember when there used to be 10 pages worth of posts going through both forums. Now it's lucky if 1 or 2 pages get done and then there are always the bot posts that cause a little spam. zOMG! pretty much only reason I joined the site. Most of my friends I've made through the game. It's ok I get my hopes up too about the game and always sad to hear from last artist that worked on it not to get my hopes up if the game doesn't come back online. Anyway thanks again. Hopefully further examples can be shared as well by other Gaians.

That's a really good point! I completely forgot about the promote my post feature. And it's really such a shame that so many of the zOMG community was driven away because even the some of the more casual players were pretty dedicated. I met a lot of amazing people through zOMG and many of them are gone too so I hear you on that <3.

And you're most welcome 4laugh ! I think it's a great topic and I wish we as a community discussed it more with more open-minded, positive arguments rather than the usual trash this type of topic can end up being (ie. negative, holier-than-though "stop whining, deal with it" arguments)

Yeah some of my friends are saying if zOMG! doesn't come back in 3 months they are leaving for good. I know with the 10K gold cap that used to be on zOMG!, 90% of my friendlist poofed. A few come back but most don't stay online for long and are gone again. I probably play zOMG! way too much and loved the casualness of the game. That's nice you made some good friends through the game too. I hope so. I was worried when posting this in the GCD with people thinking it would just be yet another inflation post. It's evolving into something really neat actually and I'm impressed by the civil responses and input from everyone. So thank you all for responding.

[Scobre]

Kurienze

I actually had no idea that happened in D3 as well, I didn't dabble in the market there at all.

I've been concerned for a while, like a lot of other users, about what exactly the plan is for the site. The inflation is outrageous, I don't know if anyone will argue against that at this point, but I think it shows a blatant disregard for trying to keep Gaia running in the long term. Unless of course, the plan is to make as much money as possible and walk backward out the door, middle fingers raised high to the users.

I don't know, I guess I don't actually have anything constructive to add aside from my mounting frustration. It's on a slow boil, but it's there.

It's ok. I didn't know about it either. Yeah not sure what the future of the site holds, but I still think Gaians have a say in it and plenty of Gaians left to talk about it in a civil manner. At least there are still friends to talk to for now.

[Scobre]

Loveparody

The only other virtual economy I even go on is Neopets. They do not experience hyperinflation since they keep the inflation in check like a hawk. 10m NPs there is like wow you're rolling in the dough.

I suck at Neopets though. I kinda quit because I couldn't get my Plushie PaintBrush and that was the last one I needed. It was selling for like 8m or something and that is just too hard for me to get on Neo.

The cash shop there is all premium dress up stuff but it cannot be sold for virtual currency. However... there's a huge inflation regarding the trading of cash shop items because the only way you can do that is with Gift Box capsules. Those are hard to come by so the cash shop stuff has a "cap" price so some of the rarest are worth 50-100 gift box caps which is a LOT of money IRL. You have to BUY the gift box caps and they're like $1.25 each.

I hear of a lot of friends returning to that site and it seems really popular. I haven't tried it myself. That's really cool hearing about their economy. Sorry to hear you couldn't get your plushie. Wow so $62.50 to $125 to trade items. That's kind of crazy. That is one good thing about Gaiaonline I guess are trades are free.

[hiimbeary]

Scobre

It's ok. I didn't know about it either. Yeah not sure what the future of the site holds, but I still think Gaians have a say in it and plenty of Gaians left to talk about it in a civil manner. At least there are still friends to talk to for now.

That's right. I'm glad to see these kinds of discussion threads, since there's a lot of hostility...well, there always would be no matter what, but at least it seems to be directed in more constructive way nowadays (trying to have users boycott GGs, for one). I keep hoping that things will get better, or at least stabilize in some way. I have a lot of nostalgia for this site and a number of friends here still, it'd be a real shame if it shut down anytime soon.

[Scobre]

Shiarka Jonless

That was perfect.

I still want Gaia to get back to doing real merch instead of GGs and countless recolors.

I think everyone's getting tired of these sink events, too. The current one is rising slowly and it's supposed to be related to the Halloween event!

Yeah real life merchandise would be cool. I kind of want to give that huge grunny at Gaia HQ a big hug. I was reading a thread about that recently actually. It is quite interesting to see Gaians finally sick of kickstarters now. I wish they would tire of the GGs soon too, but c'est la vie.

[Scobre]

Ozzy the Dreamer

Alexius is spot-on in that reddit post and I friggin' love the Downfall of Gaia Online series. Very well executed and worth a good laugh (aside from the sad truths brought up in it). People were way too quick to assume the series was about Gaia's management being compared to Hitler or Nazis. No, dammit! xD Hitler himself was portrayed as a frustrated Gaia user just trying to afford the item he wanted for his dream avatar and Nazi guild, getting more and more pissed off as inflation got worse. Made me laugh. pirate

I know at least three of the 'topics blocked' in my subscribed threads are ones that had the videos or links to them. They were taken down for reasons like 'slander' when really it was just pure satire (and frankly the only good videos about Gaia I've ever seen). Really disappointing when I saw those threads go poof.

Censorship (and a whole lot of other bad stuff) aside, I'm definitely looking forward to 'Ask the Staff' and happy to see them making an effort towards communication with the userbase again. Gotta give credit where credit is due :{D~

Yes I loved the videos as well and it was so cool to find out through this thread that the same guy that did the videos did that reddit post too. It was sad to see those videos go. I'm looking forward to the ATS too and so happy after requesting for over six months to bring it back, it will be back. I still need to write my questions down somewhere.

[Scobre]

Heiyu

Scobre

Heiyu

Love how it pretty much hits the issue right on the head. My friend and I left a few years back and returned to what Gaia is now. Gotta say, I really miss how things used to be. "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" made me laugh.

I personally am almost scared about what the Halloween event will be this year. The econ is not the only thing I have noticed is starting to suffer.

Yeah I noticed events have been lacking too. Got to wish for the best at least. Welcome back to Gaia to you and your friend at least despite the state the site is in.

About where I am at now. I can just hope the event is an actual good one, after all that was the event that made my year most of the time.

We honestly returned for the PM system. We are avid RP'ers and I like to save them to go back and read them years down the road. The pm system here makes it a piece of cake. We left because of what the site was turning into. I was a little disheartened when we returned and it was ten times worse. I have to admit that I am addicted to this place again though(Having a full time paying job does not help >_< ), I am just hoping they make better changes. Really starting to hate what the new CEO did. Because holy crap I thought cars salesmen were bad...

Yeah I think a lot of Gaians are expecting at least a decent event after the last one. That's so cool you like to RP. I really hope you make future ones to read down the road. That's awesome that you are working and it's ok to enjoy the site anyway you can.

[Heiyu]

Scobre

Heiyu

Scobre

Heiyu

Love how it pretty much hits the issue right on the head. My friend and I left a few years back and returned to what Gaia is now. Gotta say, I really miss how things used to be. "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" made me laugh.

I personally am almost scared about what the Halloween event will be this year. The econ is not the only thing I have noticed is starting to suffer.

Yeah I noticed events have been lacking too. Got to wish for the best at least. Welcome back to Gaia to you and your friend at least despite the state the site is in.

About where I am at now. I can just hope the event is an actual good one, after all that was the event that made my year most of the time.

We honestly returned for the PM system. We are avid RP'ers and I like to save them to go back and read them years down the road. The pm system here makes it a piece of cake. We left because of what the site was turning into. I was a little disheartened when we returned and it was ten times worse. I have to admit that I am addicted to this place again though(Having a full time paying job does not help >_< ), I am just hoping they make better changes. Really starting to hate what the new CEO did. Because holy crap I thought cars salesmen were bad...

Yeah I think a lot of Gaians are expecting at least a decent event after the last one. That's so cool you like to RP. I really hope you make future ones to read down the road. That's awesome that you are working and it's ok to enjoy the site anyway you can.

Keep our fingers crossed?

So far we are XD But with 180+ characters, it tends to build after a while. Personally I am hoping that Gaia sees what it is doing and stops and at least tries to work with its users again. Because I am worried about how this place is going. I may enjoy spending money here, but if things keep up I may just stick to using PM's and forgoing anything else.

[Scobre]

Kurienze

Scobre

It's ok. I didn't know about it either. Yeah not sure what the future of the site holds, but I still think Gaians have a say in it and plenty of Gaians left to talk about it in a civil manner. At least there are still friends to talk to for now.

That's right. I'm glad to see these kinds of discussion threads, since there's a lot of hostility...well, there always would be no matter what, but at least it seems to be directed in more constructive way nowadays (trying to have users boycott GGs, for one). I keep hoping that things will get better, or at least stabilize in some way. I have a lot of nostalgia for this site and a number of friends here still, it'd be a real shame if it shut down anytime soon.

I'm actually shocked at the response of this so far. I really was expecting to see more than 2 </3. xd Yeah it's possible to talk in constructive manners. That's what shocked me the most coming back from my hiatus. I like posted in forums when they were extremely heated in January and people thanked me for being nice to them. I hope things get better too. It's really funny I used to really dislike someone and now I'm friends with them. I really regret not getting to know them right away. I love that about Gaia, that sometimes who you think you dislike, you can end up being really good friends with. So I guess Gaians shouldn't give up on talking to community members because sometimes an hostile environment can sometimes bring the worst in us and others. Hopefully the return of the ATA/ATS will bring future positive results.

[Scobre]

Heiyu

Scobre

Heiyu

Scobre

Heiyu

Love how it pretty much hits the issue right on the head. My friend and I left a few years back and returned to what Gaia is now. Gotta say, I really miss how things used to be. "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" made me laugh.

I personally am almost scared about what the Halloween event will be this year. The econ is not the only thing I have noticed is starting to suffer.

Yeah I noticed events have been lacking too. Got to wish for the best at least. Welcome back to Gaia to you and your friend at least despite the state the site is in.

About where I am at now. I can just hope the event is an actual good one, after all that was the event that made my year most of the time.

We honestly returned for the PM system. We are avid RP'ers and I like to save them to go back and read them years down the road. The pm system here makes it a piece of cake. We left because of what the site was turning into. I was a little disheartened when we returned and it was ten times worse. I have to admit that I am addicted to this place again though(Having a full time paying job does not help >_< ), I am just hoping they make better changes. Really starting to hate what the new CEO did. Because holy crap I thought cars salesmen were bad...

Yeah I think a lot of Gaians are expecting at least a decent event after the last one. That's so cool you like to RP. I really hope you make future ones to read down the road. That's awesome that you are working and it's ok to enjoy the site anyway you can.

Keep our fingers crossed?

So far we are XD But with 180+ characters, it tends to build after a while. Personally I am hoping that Gaia sees what it is doing and stops and at least tries to work with its users again. Because I am worried about how this place is going. I may enjoy spending money here, but if things keep up I may just stick to using PM's and forgoing anything else.

Wow that's a lot of characters and quite impressive. Hopefully they do and enjoy your stay with your friend. smile

[Neithan]

Scobre

Yeah I'm so happy the ATA is coming back as an ATS tomorrow. I've noticed like a lot of the activities have been uneven for probably longer than I've been on the site. I mean booty grab is at 500K cap, GG is into the millions and billions and trillions now, zOMG! has a 50K cap, Hoc has a 50K cap (not sure if the gold granting still works for that game), posting and mini-games are very low, and tipping is low too. DCs as far has generating gold is around the 200K-400K area from just what I've noticed. It would just be nice to have more evened out granting I guess. Like putting a cap on GGs per day would be wonderful. What I noticed about recolor.me is that they have a daily cap for all the activities and it is working really nice. The market also acts like our gold shops, so prices are fixed.

On the note of DC's payout, Gaia may have raised it again because it gave me 9,999,999g once, just a few weeks ago. That's been the only time that i've gotten anywhere near that amount, though! i've read that some people have gotten bundles from the DC, so it does seem that the DC can be at least somewhat helpful as a way to gain gold. It'd still take a few weeks on average to build up a billion, however, and that's paltry when you consider the rate at which new items are pushed out now and towards users, and the going rates for them. True, it's completely optional to get any of them -- but when your site regularly posts ten announcements a day promoting the new items, it's clear that they want you to feel that you should buy them. It's really little wonder that users get tempted by GGs even if they know the negative wider effects: if you don't buy GC or you're not an Exchanger, minishop owner, hoard owner, or artist, it's the only way to quickly gain large amounts of gold in a short period of time.

Completely unrelated to this topic, but your sig makes me miss my Sims games. Oh, the memories, the 3GB of mods...

[Phoenix Goliathane]

Neithan

On the note of DC's payout, Gaia may have raised it again because it gave me 9,999,999g once, just a few weeks ago. That's been the only time that i've gotten anywhere near that amount, though! i've read that some people have gotten bundles from the DC, so it does seem that the DC can be at least somewhat helpful as a way to gain gold. It'd still take a few weeks on average to build up a billion, however, and that's paltry when you consider the rate at which new items are pushed out now and towards users, and the going rates for them. True, it's completely optional to get any of them -- but when your site regularly posts ten announcements a day promoting the new items, it's clear that they want you to feel that you should buy them. It's really little wonder that users get tempted by GGs even if they know the negative wider effects: if you don't buy GC or you're not an Exchanger, minishop owner, hoard owner, or artist, it's the only way to quickly gain large amounts of gold in a short period of time.

Completely unrelated to this topic, but your sig makes me miss my Sims games. Oh, the memories, the 3GB of mods...

Of course they want you to feel like they should buy them - that's their job! lol I'd be more surprised (and concerned) if Gaia DIDN'T go out of their way to make you want to buy stuff!

And yes, this veers dangerously into "Well, Gaia is a business (so they can do whatever horrible stuff they want to you in the name of profits)" territory. But first and foremost, Gaia's main revenue stream has always been its users. Why do you think they pivoted away from advertising and started focusing on items?

In that sense, I'm less concerned about the rate they're pushing out new items insofar as feeling exploited by the way they're selling them. Gaia's tactics have become more manipulative (sup LEIs), but it also seems that to a certain degree they're taking items out of monthly RIGs and selling them outright. The original Marionette items, for example, were all RIG items; the newer ones and their Restrung counterparts have all been direct sales or direct grants, IIRC. Of course, RIG grants are problematic in and of themselves, as it encourages gambling - which itself is predatory.

[TasteChaos]

That article is like a beautiful, eloquent composition of everything I have been preaching and supporting in SF for the last year.

As for the spoons: the only other online economy I've participated in was Neopets many years ago. I don't remember any significant inflation in the time I was there.

[Scobre]

Neithan

Scobre

Yeah I'm so happy the ATA is coming back as an ATS tomorrow. I've noticed like a lot of the activities have been uneven for probably longer than I've been on the site. I mean booty grab is at 500K cap, GG is into the millions and billions and trillions now, zOMG! has a 50K cap, Hoc has a 50K cap (not sure if the gold granting still works for that game), posting and mini-games are very low, and tipping is low too. DCs as far has generating gold is around the 200K-400K area from just what I've noticed. It would just be nice to have more evened out granting I guess. Like putting a cap on GGs per day would be wonderful. What I noticed about recolor.me is that they have a daily cap for all the activities and it is working really nice. The market also acts like our gold shops, so prices are fixed.

On the note of DC's payout, Gaia may have raised it again because it gave me 9,999,999g once, just a few weeks ago. That's been the only time that i've gotten anywhere near that amount, though! i've read that some people have gotten bundles from the DC, so it does seem that the DC can be at least somewhat helpful as a way to gain gold. It'd still take a few weeks on average to build up a billion, however, and that's paltry when you consider the rate at which new items are pushed out now and towards users, and the going rates for them. True, it's completely optional to get any of them -- but when your site regularly posts ten announcements a day promoting the new items, it's clear that they want you to feel that you should buy them. It's really little wonder that users get tempted by GGs even if they know the negative wider effects: if you don't buy GC or you're not an Exchanger, minishop owner, hoard owner, or artist, it's the only way to quickly gain large amounts of gold in a short period of time.

Completely unrelated to this topic, but your sig makes me miss my Sims games. Oh, the memories, the 3GB of mods...

I think it's pretty obvious Gamification exists now. It was interesting reading some of the BBB replies referring Gaia to a Freemium site. It would make more sense to have all the activities on the site balance with each other and have a global daily cap. I don't tend to worry about if charms are granted in DC since they don't cause inflation. When DC grant gold it does cause inflation, but with how bad the economy is now, it's minimal compared to GGs grants. I can see why Gaians would purchase them. I mean it's a fast way to earn gold without having to wait for an item to sell. I just wish they didn't exists personally because of knowing the negative effects of them from US history and economic classes. Pretty much they are like a stimulus package that get released every day. It encourages spending so I do think Gaia wants them around to keep the monthly cash quotes high. I just don't expect Gaia to fix inflation at this point as long as the cash sales for them exist. It's a shame Gaia can't think up of another product that wouldn't upset the user base and make them money at the same time. I was hoping Gofusion charm sales would take over the GG sales, but it didn't. So much for asking Gaia to introduce a new currency I guess. It's like we as a community can only give Gaia so many gold sink ideas but it won't help if Gaia wants to keep the input of gold higher than the output. I'm pretty sure they are smart enough to keep track of those numbers. I guess best we can do at this point is to ensure that the features will remain fun and social for future generations and that the manga will continue.