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2 Alabama 6th-Grade Boys Arrested for Death Note Book Go to post 74 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:22 pm
"Raggnorok"
Great...more moronic children taking an anime and attempting to turn it into reality. Delusional fucktards.


They are sixth graders. confused
7th grade teacher calls Obama 'n****r' in class, not fired. Go to post 119 Politics Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:21 pm
"Redem"
They're not acting as private citizens when they're in a public class room, they're representatives of the state employed to do a specific job.

I'd question any authority that said Federally Controlled means Federally Representing i.e. Heralding.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:53 am
"Erasmas V"
"kp is dcvi"
"Erasmas V"

That's...assuming the government cares about love.


They have to.

We could have never so much have discovered the wheel, but we'd still have food, drink, rest, clothing, and union. (Amongst other things).


Fair enough, but I don't think they're going to be granting privileges on the basis of love any time soon.

Maybe not.

I still think it comes down to equality, I still think it comes down to letting people partake in one of the high points of their human existence.

There are few good reasons to deny it. Maybe none.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:37 am
"Erasmas V"

That's...assuming the government cares about love.


They have to.

We could have never so much have discovered the wheel, but we'd still have food, drink, rest, clothing, and union. (Amongst other things).
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:21 am
"Erasmas V"
"kp is dcvi"
"Erasmas V"
"kp is dcvi"
"Eramus V"
This isn't about gayness, it's about marriage.


Erasmus, I'm not quite so sure you understand what you're saying.

Would you deny a rising genius his change at Princeton because, "institutionalized education obfuscates his own personal studies"?

It's just as illogical: In the above example, Education and the conferment of Professional Degrees is THE capstone of knowledge acquisition.

Similarly, what's the capstone of one's sexuality? Monogamous union. If anything, you're belittling homo/bisexuality to something that just about these trite, trivial sexual unions.


Well, first off let me reprint the entire paragraph:

Quote:
I've often thought people get too wrapped up on the sexuality aspect of this debate, and not on what they're asking for. This leads people to equate disagreement with gay marriage with disagreement with the gay lifestyle. Though that is true for a lot of people, we're not talking about the fringe. Part of the reason religious people are so adamently against it is because they feel like you're taking a tradition that is, in part, religious and exploiting it. This isn't about gayness, it's about marriage. Marriage has always had deeper implications than who loves whom, who has sex with whom, and who lives with whom. It's intertwined with other social and economic factors that many of you who are just on the "these are my rights being denied!" kick either don't care about, or think are largely irrelevant.


I read your response a few times, and I'm sure I get where you're coming from. That bit of text is saying people who disagree with gay marriage are more concerned with the institution of marriage retaining some semblance of sanctity. They feel overturning the mixed sex monogamous aspect would be the final nail in the proverbial coffin. I don't think it has much to do with their feelings about homosexuality. Like, I think it is possible to be accepting of homosexuality, but still believe in that one model for marriage. People too often take the gay marriage issue as a litmus test to see if we're "there yet" in terms of acceptance. Whether or not we accept gays has little to do with what we view as a marriage.


It doesn't matter. And, in the same way, I'm not adverse to them, like they hate us, or like they hate gays, or whatever.

But whether or not they are against gays or marriage isn't the point. It's not about what you're "For" or what you "Want", it's more about, "What will happen with what you want."

Denying gays marriage, as I've said, is denying them the pinnacle of partnership. THE end, THE goal, THE thing to work for is a committed pairing. The State, through the act of marriage, recognizes this and shows it to the entire public. It's a legal Wedding Ring, if you will.

You might be wondering how this strengthens my argument. It's quite simple, corny, yet simple: what is life without love? I'm dead serious on that one. You have a species of organisms mulling around and getting into all sorts of problems because they are lonely, because they all long for someone. You have entire epics devoted to relationships, entire empires and cities built for loved ones... you have a foundation of the human experience. You have a component, a factor, a piece to almost every major religion and philosophy and lifestyle... and you want to shut out its most ultimate manifestation to an entire group of people.

That's simply not right. This isn't just denying some gays, marriage. This is denying some people something incredible, something that... I don't know. I don't even think I have words to describe it.


Eh?

Quote:
It's denying them legal recognition of marriage, but like I've said before, no one is literally stopping them from getting married.
This isn't support for criminalization on gay marriage. There are churches who will marry two people of the same sex. There are legal name-changes and power of attorney they can lawfully receive (most of the time).

That's why I reprinted that paragraph: marriage isn't just about validating partnership. If it was, if it ever was, I could see your point. There are further implications involved than just validating loving relationships, and the government can't really do that anyway.

It's more than the denial of a title. It can bring about great evils too. I'm reading, now, about a Lesbian couple that could not get In Vitro, and the mental trauma this wrought. This, as an aside.

But you do realize, for every day it isn't protected federally, that's one more opportunity for a strike against it.

And what's more, we're making excuses by saying "Well if it's about love, it's about love!" That's true but as the same time, if it's real, the government would see that too.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:18 am
"linaloki"
"kp is dcvi"
"linaloki"
"Erasmas V"
"linaloki"
Wait... so your arguments are "Gay marriage won't make people accept you" and tradition?

Banning slavery didn't make black people accepted. Letting women vote didn't make them accepted. So the f**k what? Doing what's right shouldn't be hindered because people are douchehats.

And tradition? Reeeeeeeeeeeeally?


Banning slavery and letting citizens vote is right. Ignoring the definitive components of marriage for misguided notions of acceptance...isn't. What's wrong with tradition? Nothing is wrong with tradition.


Banning slavery was right... how? Was slavery always wrong? How about indentured servitude? Or was it perhaps the misuse of the slaves, the trade, and the imbalance of population that made it right to ban at that point?

As for citizens... why even let women BE citizens? For someone who's complaining about law not formulating opinion, you don't seem to give much opinion beyond law on those points. Defend yourself. What made banning slavery and letting women vote right? And how can the general thought processes used to explain and defend such a point of view not be used to also describe making same-sex marriage legal when it, being marriage of an undefined specification, has been predefined as a human right?

And what's wrong with tradition? Nothing. What's wrong with arguing that tradition is an inherently self-sufficient basis for law and morality? Everything.


Familiarity is functional for good gov't. As an FYI.


If I read you correctly, you say good governments function on familiarity... do you have an example, perhaps? I can see that argument from familiarity of the inner workings of the government, but not so much from societal familiarities. Nor can I see that argument being able to defend an argument from tradition, as not all familiarity breeds good government.

A good theoretical example.

Someone I know advocates quite strongly for the cessation of the United States and the formation of fifty small countries (or around... eight country clusters?) Why? I don't know, he listed off a number of reasons and made a relatively strong argument.

My response? Familiarity. We've only come to know fifty states, in our life times. As have our fellow global citizens. How strong these small city-states would be... I couldn't tell you but as an argument for the United States, it's just a matter of tradition and... familiarity. Familiarity of a single culture. It is something sweet, if you will. Something we know, the only thing we know, and the elimination of that is frightening for most.

In turn... we'll hammer out the kinks of what we have. We work with what we know. So, I'm not denying that there are new ways that are better! I'm just saying it'd be too much of a struggle to promote other things.

But it's something that can be rather backwards, too.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:09 am
"Erasmas V"
"kp is dcvi"
"Eramus V"
This isn't about gayness, it's about marriage.


Erasmus, I'm not quite so sure you understand what you're saying.

Would you deny a rising genius his change at Princeton because, "institutionalized education obfuscates his own personal studies"?

It's just as illogical: In the above example, Education and the conferment of Professional Degrees is THE capstone of knowledge acquisition.

Similarly, what's the capstone of one's sexuality? Monogamous union. If anything, you're belittling homo/bisexuality to something that just about these trite, trivial sexual unions.


Well, first off let me reprint the entire paragraph:

Quote:
I've often thought people get too wrapped up on the sexuality aspect of this debate, and not on what they're asking for. This leads people to equate disagreement with gay marriage with disagreement with the gay lifestyle. Though that is true for a lot of people, we're not talking about the fringe. Part of the reason religious people are so adamently against it is because they feel like you're taking a tradition that is, in part, religious and exploiting it. This isn't about gayness, it's about marriage. Marriage has always had deeper implications than who loves whom, who has sex with whom, and who lives with whom. It's intertwined with other social and economic factors that many of you who are just on the "these are my rights being denied!" kick either don't care about, or think are largely irrelevant.


I read your response a few times, and I'm sure I get where you're coming from. That bit of text is saying people who disagree with gay marriage are more concerned with the institution of marriage retaining some semblance of sanctity. They feel overturning the mixed sex monogamous aspect would be the final nail in the proverbial coffin. I don't think it has much to do with their feelings about homosexuality. Like, I think it is possible to be accepting of homosexuality, but still believe in that one model for marriage. People too often take the gay marriage issue as a litmus test to see if we're "there yet" in terms of acceptance. Whether or not we accept gays has little to do with what we view as a marriage.


It doesn't matter. And, in the same way, I'm not adverse to them, like they hate us, or like they hate gays, or whatever.

But whether or not they are against gays or marriage isn't the point. It's not about what you're "For" or what you "Want", it's more about, "What will happen with what you want."

Denying gays marriage, as I've said, is denying them the pinnacle of partnership. THE end, THE goal, THE thing to work for is a committed pairing. The State, through the act of marriage, recognizes this and shows it to the entire public. It's a legal Wedding Ring, if you will.

You might be wondering how this strengthens my argument. It's quite simple, corny, yet simple: what is life without love? I'm dead serious on that one. You have a species of organisms mulling around and getting into all sorts of problems because they are lonely, because they all long for someone. You have entire epics devoted to relationships, entire empires and cities built for loved ones... you have a foundation of the human experience. You have a component, a factor, a piece to almost every major religion and philosophy and lifestyle... and you want to shut out its most ultimate manifestation to an entire group of people.

That's simply not right. This isn't just denying some gays, marriage. This is denying some people something incredible, something that... I don't know. I don't even think I have words to describe it.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:48 am
"linaloki"
"Erasmas V"
"linaloki"
Wait... so your arguments are "Gay marriage won't make people accept you" and tradition?

Banning slavery didn't make black people accepted. Letting women vote didn't make them accepted. So the f**k what? Doing what's right shouldn't be hindered because people are douchehats.

And tradition? Reeeeeeeeeeeeally?


Banning slavery and letting citizens vote is right. Ignoring the definitive components of marriage for misguided notions of acceptance...isn't. What's wrong with tradition? Nothing is wrong with tradition.


Banning slavery was right... how? Was slavery always wrong? How about indentured servitude? Or was it perhaps the misuse of the slaves, the trade, and the imbalance of population that made it right to ban at that point?

As for citizens... why even let women BE citizens? For someone who's complaining about law not formulating opinion, you don't seem to give much opinion beyond law on those points. Defend yourself. What made banning slavery and letting women vote right? And how can the general thought processes used to explain and defend such a point of view not be used to also describe making same-sex marriage legal when it, being marriage of an undefined specification, has been predefined as a human right?

And what's wrong with tradition? Nothing. What's wrong with arguing that tradition is an inherently self-sufficient basis for law and morality? Everything.


Familiarity is functional for good gov't. As an FYI.
7th grade teacher calls Obama 'n****r' in class, not fired. Go to post 119 Politics Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:30 am
Employers pay women less than men for past century.

Details at 9.

EDIT:
Quote:
So, what's that about public schools indoctrinating kids in socialist multicultural liberalism again?

¿Qué?

I knew three things coming out of Kinner-narnen:
1. God is good.
2. Round pegs fit into round holes.
3. Taxes are bad.
Another Argument Against Gay Marriage Go to post 151 Extended Discussion Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:05 pm
"Eramus V"
This isn't about gayness, it's about marriage.


Erasmus, I'm not quite so sure you understand what you're saying.

Would you deny a rising genius his change at Princeton because, "institutionalized education obfuscates his own personal studies"?

It's just as illogical: In the above example, Education and the conferment of Professional Degrees is THE capstone of knowledge acquisition.

Similarly, what's the capstone of one's sexuality? Monogamous union. If anything, you're belittling homo/bisexuality to something that just about these trite, trivial sexual unions.
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